A new look on Auction houses and Gladiator arenas.

[Defiant One]

We all know that including those features in a game would be cool but the way other MMOs include them stops us from thinking that way.
Instanced gladiator arenas that harm other types of PvP, auction houses that work like 1000 mini-auctions which removes social aspect of trading. Both of these ways are too artificial and feel un-sandboxish as its more like "content" that devs expect players to use, not "features" that add to the world more life IMO.

So here goes my suggestion: We could have arenas and auction halls built in cities, which wouldnt be instanced, but more like if there's a fight at the arena - there's only 1 fight, same with auction houses.
Players could register for a fight, challenge someone, wager his stuff. Tournaments could be organized with entrance fees, etc. Maybe arena owners could make profit of it. Spectators in arenas could place bets for players or teams etc. Something similar like horse races we spectate in real world. That way scheludes of arenas could be formed, and players could check what time there's certain fight, as there cant be 2 fights in single arena(cuz its not instanced). Maybe they would place a bet or join in..

Something similar would go for auction houses. In towns we could have special halls for players to rent and hold actual auctions. Player would rent it for certain amount of set time, pick items he wants to sell and starting bids for them.
That way the timetable of auction house would be formed and players could check auction holding times and items being sold. A perfect way to sell rare items, that everyone wants imo

I think features like that would be very social in comparison to WoW style auction houses and gladiator arenas.
Thoughts?

[Resin]

Absolutely.

To make this system more functional there should be extra tools and attractions. Such as the ability to flood the arena or capture wildlife to use in arenas. Some extra spectacle to attract gamblers.

[Archaaz]

My understanding was that there would not be rare items in MO, that that was a major selling point in its superiority over other games, though I could be mistaken.

At any rate, this is an interesting notion. The way I would like to see it implemented is perhaps including a large building resembling an arena, or an enclosed field within the city, or some (any) other area outside of it, in which people could reasonably hold a sparring match or small (or large) skirmish. Maybe in some cities, maybe in all, maybe even culturally-based. Then people could use it to fight (or not), could hold matches in it (or not), could take bets on those matches if they so desired (or join in, or dance, or auction off their goods, or whistle Dixie, etc).

My idea for auctions is somewhat similar, but I think "market" would be a better word. These would be structured like empty tracts of space in the town proper, or outside of it, or pretty much anywhere a few players decided to get together and make one. Then the players could advertise wares for sale, take money from other players for said items, and give the items to the respective buyers.

[Resin]

I like the premise of your version and think places like this could exist, certainly just outside environments that lend themselves to crowd gathering.

I would like to see spaces in the cities slightly more regulated though (Hey, you! No Loitering!) If you want to sell stuff you should have to rent the space or have someone who owns the space sell it for you on commision. This would prevent it from getting too huge and tons of players sitting around AFK at their individual little stalls making shopping a nightmare. But you could still do that outside of town if you want to, or maybe in the half-orcs slumy excuse for a town *ptu!* /jk some of my own guildies are half-orcs.

[Archaaz]

That's just my point, or part of it. If one area is too crowded, simply go to another area and start up another "market." Advertise it on a board somewhere, shout it from the rooftops, however you want to spread the word. Bear in mind the system I propose is in no way automated, players who sat there AFK would not be making trades of any sort. I suppose there might be a large portion just sitting there AFK, but the above method solves that quite neatly.

Why would you need to rent the space from someone (and who is doing all this owning in the first place), when you can simply go somewhere else and set up shop for free?

[Resin]

My idea is that if there were full time buyer and sellers, relatively limited in number these people might be prefered by most players as a matter of conveinance. They would be in the known market district. Now other markets could develop organicly, but my suggestion is not in the city. These other markets would probably have some better deals and some totally overpriced stuff, and would probably be more difficult than traders in the city who (as I see it) would have specialty item shops. One guy does swords, another armor, another potions, with signs out so you can figure it out real easy and you probably know how much you will pay and how much you can sell for.

IMO start out the game with NPCs running these shops, however give the NPCs limited cash and limited goods, and maybe some limited crafting skills if they can get players to bring them resources. They would also need to pay the rent or at least their own 'living expenses'. There goods and money would not replenish, so Potion Sam of Sam's Potion Emporium needs to buy all his potions and ingredients from players and sell them for more money than he's buying them for. If he stops making money, his money starts deteriorating until finally he needs to offer his shop up for lease or sale, and perhaps get a job working there. Of course if he gets fired by his new player boss he might have to turn to banditry, but Potion Sam sucks at PvNP and will soon come to a sad end.

[Defiant One]

Originally Posted by Archaaz

My understanding was that there would not be rare items in MO, that that was a major selling point in its superiority over other games, though I could be mistaken.

At any rate, this is an interesting notion. The way I would like to see it implemented is perhaps including a large building resembling an arena, or an enclosed field within the city, or some (any) other area outside of it, in which people could reasonably hold a sparring match or small (or large) skirmish. Maybe in some cities, maybe in all, maybe even culturally-based. Then people could use it to fight (or not), could hold matches in it (or not), could take bets on those matches if they so desired (or join in, or dance, or auction off their goods, or whistle Dixie, etc).

My idea for auctions is somewhat similar, but I think "market" would be a better word. These would be structured like empty tracts of space in the town proper, or outside of it, or pretty much anywhere a few players decided to get together and make one. Then the players could advertise wares for sale, take money from other players for said items, and give the items to the respective buyers.

Well, I dont think everyone will run around with same quality items, there's always the best crafter, crafting better items than others, and think about selling our property like ships, houses..

I think there should be market too, with auction houses they could form trading districts. Markets for regular stuff, but if there's a famous trader/crafter with items that more than few people want, he could rent that auction hall. And simple system implemened for registering and holding auctions is always good to bring in more order to those things. And it doesnt mean you cant rush in the auction house, kill all people there and try to take selling stuff..

[Stump]

Well, there will be rare items made from rare materials, they will be better, but not overpowered.

[GodSlayer]

Originally Posted by Defiant One

We all know that including those features in a game would be cool but the way other MMOs include them stops us from thinking that way.
Instanced gladiator arenas that harm other types of PvP, auction houses that work like 1000 mini-auctions which removes social aspect of trading. Both of these ways are too artificial and feel un-sandboxish as its more like "content" that devs expect players to use, not "features" that add to the world more life IMO.

So here goes my suggestion: We could have arenas and auction halls built in cities, which wouldnt be instanced, but more like if there's a fight at the arena - there's only 1 fight, same with auction houses.
Players could register for a fight, challenge someone, wager his stuff. Tournaments could be organized with entrance fees, etc. Maybe arena owners could make profit of it. Spectators in arenas could place bets for players or teams etc. Something similar like horse races we spectate in real world. That way scheludes of arenas could be formed, and players could check what time there's certain fight, as there cant be 2 fights in single arena(cuz its not instanced). Maybe they would place a bet or join in..

Something similar would go for auction houses. In towns we could have special halls for players to rent and hold actual auctions. Player would rent it for certain amount of set time, pick items he wants to sell and starting bids for them.
That way the timetable of auction house would be formed and players could check auction holding times and items being sold. A perfect way to sell rare items, that everyone wants imo

I think features like that would be very social in comparison to WoW style auction houses and gladiator arenas.
Thoughts?

Very nice ideas you got in here and i hope we will se fare fights in arenas 1v1.

[Jedi]

"...Something similar would go for auction houses. In towns we could have special halls for players to rent and hold actual auctions. Player would rent it for certain amount of set time, pick items he wants to sell and starting bids for them..."

sth like vendors in uo may be? I play on free server, and we have got vendors, which sell all our things. But place for rent cost a lot of money.

[Defiant One]

Originally Posted by Jedi

"...Something similar would go for auction houses. In towns we could have special halls for players to rent and hold actual auctions. Player would rent it for certain amount of set time, pick items he wants to sell and starting bids for them..."

sth like vendors in uo may be? I play on free server, and we have got vendors, which sell all our things. But place for rent cost a lot of money.

I guess yes, something similar, but more "royal". I see how auction houses would be used by most famous crafters, house, ship owners or slayers of rare monsters selling epic loot they got.

[Ceynt]

I think dueling arenas and auction houses like this would be fairly easy to implement. Thumbs up

One thing, maybe have it where at the Auction House, all the players inside the major city and possible those on the near outskirts can hear the Auctioneer. That way it gives people incentive to use the feature, whereas those players that simply spam "SELLING BLABLABLA, OPEN TRADE, PST!!!!" will only have a remote distance that others would hear them, assuming that there will be no global chat for non-guilded/non-factioned players.

(Guess it depends on how the chat system works - chat thread)

[Defiant One]

I guess something like that would useful, Ceynt, but maybe in less artificial way? Maybe guards and other NPCs could talk about "that there's a ship being sold today, did you know that" etc?

Well, that opens a whole new idea of NPCs actually responding to the worlds events and participating in the life of MO together with players.

[Ceynt]

Since when do guards know what the hell is going on? :P

[Defiant One]

Originally Posted by Ceynt

Since when do guards know what the hell is going on? :P

Hell, if we want something more than lifeless NPCs in Mo maybe they could react to the world?

[Ceynt]

I suppose they could relay the messages... but then what if all the guards are dead?

[Defiant One]

Uhh, that means theyre dead I suppose? aaaand maybe something wrong is going in the city... something to worry about, huh?

Now seriously: I didnt mean that "a guard should spite out messages about auctions every 5 minutes" etc, like an obvious bot, I meant that all NPCs in city could sometimes say things about things going on in city? Just to add immersion of a believable world and sometimes help players abit. Theres no town without gossip, you know.

[Resin]

I like the idea of random NPC chatter. They can't all say "Hey I heard you were the Nevearine." So talking about the latest big auction or tournament winner would be cool.

I wouldn't mind seeing elimination style tournaments in NPC cities either. They could then inspire player cities to do them one better.

[Ceynt]

Yeah, I like town gossip from NPC's, however for an Auction House, this needs to be the moment the item goes up for sale, and ends... I dont think a single item would be up for sale for more than 5-10 minutes???

[Eonwe]

I'd like the arena battles to have some sort of NPC you wager with. Normally I am not big on using NPCs for anything, but I think you'd really need one in this case. The arenas could even be player owned possibly, but you could have the equivalent of an NPC merchant, except that he would facilitate bets rather than buy and sell items. You would place a bet with the NPC, and you would recieve a bet slip from the NPC. Your slip could be stolen/looted off of you in the arena. On the outskirts of the arena there will be guards that will enforce the normal laws. In addition to the normal laws, if you interfere in any way with the arena battle you'll be killed. So there is some risk in having the betting slips and having an NPC does not make everything completely safe. Arenas should have some level of protection, but you are in a room full of bloodthirsty people, you can't expect complete safety.

I'm not sure how you'd handle people getting their friends to fight and then all of them wager against their friend as the throws the fight. There must be some mechanic you can put in place to combat this, because I think this would ruin the arena battles. One thing I think would encourage players to not throw fights would be to track their win-loss ratio. Payouts could be based off of this ratio as well. There would be a comparison of the w/l ratios of the competitors and you could have the payouts listed based off of that. The gist of that is, if a group of amazing PvPers are going up against a pretty poor group of PvPers you will win a greater amount of money betting on the poor group of PvPers.

Each weekend the arenas could shift from player fights to gladiator battles including monsters and humanoid NPCs. I think this could have the potential to fill the arenas and get a lot of bets going.

[Aftrmath0]

I recall running a casino in Ultima Online, I hired employees (real people) to take and distribute the money received, in Golden chests locked down behind the counters. We ensured that at the end of the night. whomever s station made money the worker behind the counter would receive 25% ... so in some cases we would be bringing in millions of dollars behind the counter in which our casino staff would make 25% of. as long as they were being payed and I didn't catch them stealing money.. then we were able to run it as a trustworthy business... the cool thing was ... the customers would be trusting enough to put the million in my employees bag prior to rolling the dice or before throwing the darts.

My point is... It becomes more about a relationship and trust with that customer. and that is what makes this type of game unique. Players decipher what type of environment they make for themselves. (Genius!)

[Ceynt]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

Like for instance if you want to set up an arena and taking bets for fights? You can do that.

taken from link

[krattos]

I like both of your ideas Defiant one it is a good way to show off skills without having the repercusion of loosing gear or being flagged as a murderer. On top of that idea with arenas and gladiator i think your idea would work best in lets say a major city. Personally how i would like the arenas to work on top would go something like this.

It would be neat if guilds where to be able to hold there own arenas matches. Now how it would work would go like this. I do believe that guilds are allowed to have there own city like areas and what not and other guilds have the option of sieging them. It would be awesome if lets say Guild "A" attacks guild "B" and is successful in doing so. Guild A has now the option of capturing a few members of "B" and keeping them as slaves like they use to do in Rome and use them in the arena. Now of course there should be a set number of people your allowed to keep hostage lets say 5 "A" would mot likely take the best if not most prestigious players of "B" and show them off as bragging rights like Ha we defeated you and have your best members are in our hands and make them fight in a FFA match.

Now of course this sucks to be a hostage cause you really cant do much for while your being captive but then again this goes with the idea of actually having repercusion for dying unlike in other mmos if you loose a siege battle or pvp it doesnt really matter all you do is wait to spawn again and re enter the battle or regroup and take back the keep you lost which is pansy pvp inmo. Now in regards to gear the guild hosting the event can give them standard item like bows, 2h/1h weapons, shield etc etc given the option of the hostage to choose wouldnt be fair to give a archer a 2h sword and a swordsmen a bow and addition to armor they get minimal to basic stuff course your "leet" gear was taken by guild "A" when you lost given with the whole full loot system.

Now "A" has the option of hosting a arena event in there own guild city a member of "A" could go to a major city and endorse the event attracting other members of MO to watch it. By doing so this could help out a guild economy out a bit cause they could charge spectators a little fee like they would do in Rl if you want to watch a major event you need to buy a ticket.

Of course spectators could wage bets on fight how they would do so. Im not sure if this is possible but if Mo could have a option in contacting a Gm and asking him to act as a middle man in the bets or have a npc do this. The npc or gm would have a option of clicking on him you select the person you would like to place your bet on and the amount. The guild could also benefit from this because they could make a little profit from the lets say 10% for each bet. Now if this does happen in the game and gets popular guilds would make a substantial amount of money and have another purpose of raiding guilds.

Now of course to make it fair for the slaves "B" could go and attack "A" and if they are successful they would get there members back or they could buy them back or lets say "A'' gets attack by another guild "C" "A" could use "B" members to fight in return they would be set free and possibly give back there items if "A" is feeling generous . If both fail and "A'' fends off the attack with success and choose not to sell back the members there should be a set time in which you can keep the slaves lets say 2 days this gives you enough time to plan your event and organize.

People can make post in Realm forums if they have so or go in to major cities like i said earlier to advertise there event. I hope this does get added it be a neat feature and i personally wouldn't mind being in a arena we all aren't fond with a paticular guild mates for whatever reason and wouldn't mind killing them. And it would give a sense of pride for the guild hosting the event showing off your accomplishment this would work nicely for guilds who have "beef" towards one another and gives them a reason to brag to the loosing guild.

[Hadrijan]

Pardon my bad english spelling.

krattos ,youre idea sounds ok for those who don't think in a bigger perspective , lets say if I was a captive/Slave id just go offline if they wanted me to do something ,and in effect destroying their event/bragging riths and just w8 for those 2 days to be set free besids why would I want to demene myself by beaing their captive some of us have oure pride, Or go play an alt.So that Idea is down the drain.

My Idea of an Arena is completely diffreant its elaborate yes ,but simple at the same time.

Ok Big cities have arenas and matches are instanced, w8 w8 don't get upset here ,its to alow more then one match to play oute at the same time
and not make players w8 "in que" to fight.I imagine things like these thers thes big place(an arena ofc) and a gate and a NPC next to it sitting behind a desk ,if you want to fight in the arena (solo or as a team) you click on him and set youreslf to fight vs a random team/player or a set premade match or set youreself "w8ting for a chalanger", you are then free to walk araund while you w8 for the que to pop up ,if you leave the city area during que youre que gets canceld(to prevent travel exploits).

Wen it pops up you get the name of youre chalanger or/a the persion you are randomly selected to fight you acsept or decly, then you get ported in to the cage(loading scren since its instanced) and get 8min , yes 8min till the fight starts ,the reson is as following, to set youre gear/wep etc.

Now if youre a spectaitor or want to watch/bet you go to teh arena wer the gates are and you click on the gates and a scren pops up on the arena matches like : in progres ,ended and in preperation(yes the 8min w8ting time befor the match starts). You enter the "in preperation" matches a timer pops up untill the match starts so you see how much time you have to bet ,well you anter thrue the gate(loading) you see a nps who takes youre bet and who and how much and then you move up to the stands to w8 and watch wen the fights ower you have lets say 4min to go back to the beting npc to pik up the money till the instanc resets in witch case you get ported outside (and lose any money you mith have won).
If you click on the "in progres" (Ofc you see the names of the players fighting in that match) you can still enter those and watch them but cant bet on them since they alredy started.
Ofc the set of minor rules are likerandom matches sets players of similar skill lvl against each other,no colour marking if you kill a player in arena and no pvp on the stands ,we wouldn't want an angry mob killing each other ower the lose of their champion

Some matches would be announced in the open infront of the arena to alert the players that they can bet on an upcoming match.

Aswell the match making NPC would have an option for the training ring wer you'd fight against creatures and if you win you get some money oute of it aswell if you win an arena match ,but not so much as to be exploited to farm money.

Guilds could have their own arena and their own events and rules for them ,like "BG" arena events ,thes idea requiers more time will come back to that.



OK, NEXT

The AH marketing thing, yes AHs in conventioal MMOs are boring hard preset and for me persionaly anoying.
Id propose that a more fun AH system is set like you throw youre "junk" to thes Buyer NPC in a market aeria you set youre price like in a usual AH, but then the stuff gets divided amongs the npcs in the market to defined traders like : SwordsMerchant , Apothecary ,etc and if you want to buy something you go to those npcs. And if something you gave to the AH npc gets sold you get a sertain % of the money deliverd to you in the mail. Thes system is ment for thoe who don't want to showt all day to sell something or sit in the corner like a hobo with some stuff to sell.

Ofc Id add a "store" system aswell for those who like to buy sell buy sell and so on, id advise that guilds do that and no to any solo individuals.

You "rent" a store wer you have a NPC selling youre still similaur to a convential AH only that you don't bargain with it only Buy/sell ,the prices are controled via a ledgebook in the store witch is controled by the player curently owning the store ,prefer if more ppl regulate that(a guild) ,you rent the store becous if you stop paying the rent then another player can take ower.You can name youre own store and advertise it via a chate system.

Also something to add the things you just sell at the regular price to various NPC traders are also given to the varisous traders in varisou markets in the game but thes items disapear from inventory of the NPC trader and the selling player doesn't recive any money if the item is bought by another player.

[Resin]

My Idea for an AH or Arena:
An empty building in a city. You can rent it. Once its yours you can do whatever you want there. No coding necessary.

[Halmodin]

Originally Posted by Resin

My Idea for an AH or Arena:
An empty building in a city. You can rent it. Once its yours you can do whatever you want there. No coding necessary.

I think thats basically what everbody wants (sry for generalising if this isn't your case ), but imo there would be a serious organisation problem .

My idea is to have a big storage space in that building where the person who rented it could store the items.
All the items in the storage would be written down on signs along the walls of the building, and the renter could set a date for the auction of the items, and the price, to be seen on the signs .

This would prevent overcrowding of the auction space, since people would go only when the items that intrests them is on auction, and they would know it in advance .

[Resin]

/agree, except that to the greatest extent possible I would like to see this all player driven - to the extent where the player needs to advertise what will be sold when, bark his own auction, perhaps get someone guildie or friend, to actually go to a 'vault' pick out the item and go trade it with the winer of the auction for the agreed upon price.

If a player owns a building he should have posting rights, to write whatever he wants on posters and post them on his building. For renters of a designated AH I guess only AH announcements could be formatted.

[Halmodin]

Well ok Resin, but at least have an optional automatic system that just says the minimum, because if you end up with loads of items, handling everything could be difficult

[Vledich]

I love the idea of having it uninstanced... bet and watch the arenas will be so much freaking fun!

[Hadrijan]

Pls ppl ,a none instanced arena , I know you hate instances , I HATE instances but more then that I hate Lagg and fps drop to 0-3 .

Ok imagine a none instanced arena in a BIG city , lets say thers a fight and 40-200 ppl come to watch it in a relatively small "arena" ,it can't be to big cus then ppl can't watch the fight... the lagg... imagine THAT lagg.

And player maintained betting , ok sounds fun ,it rly does yes but... I'm not the sort to thrust some guy to uphold hes end of the bargain to pay me back if I've won the bet ,and imagine the "chaos" wen that guy gets swarmed with wispers and tells and all that...

Player run AHs ...the confusion if he gets swarmd swell... Werahowses yes its good if youre living in a REAL life and not in a virtual one... .Ok, guilds can have their own storehowses that would be a must ofc.But a single persion showting oute hes lungs to sell some stuff all day ,wen hes gona have the time to GET the stuff he wants to sell anyway :P,btw anyone can sell stuff like that in any mass played mmo oute ther anyway.

[Resin]

There will be a big instanced arena in Tindremene for just the reason you describe. Frankly it doesn't interest me much. I would much rather set up my own 10-20 man double elimination tournament in a local tavern. Everyone pays 5g or whatever to enter, winner takes all. Leaving the money out on the table with 10-20 people watching it - it would be absolutely hilarious if someone tried to grab the cash and run.
This would never happen in a themepark game where everyone is busy grinding their exp and running their so-called quests, but in MO? maybe.

The AH - I guess you could have an NPC do the barking, not quite as interesting though. To my thinking AH should be reserved for high-end items, you auction just a few items that you think will actually fetch high prices and you don't let it go all day. Send the cheap stuff to the NPC junk stalls.