why I am impatient to see the real guard System.

[TomBor]

First of all, Mats - thank you for your answer.
I'm glad to hear that at least two types of guards are "real guards" which is great.

Unfortunately, I am not a programmer (though I'm thinking I should take it up sometimes when I've got the time) but I do know the logic of the basics.

I would prefer that even the teleporting guards would not be really teleporters - I'll explain:
-The guards are walking around the city just like any other player and guard. They are there all the time.
-If a player is called upon, then the guard will teleport to that player's position and kill him. Perhaps the animation of a spell could be used - it would be more immersing.
- * Perhaps it could be that the guard will at first run after the player and only then teleport. I'm not sure but perhaps you could write a program that follows this logic:

1) Guard is called on a player.
2) Guard identifies player.
3) Guard begins to run after player.
(*) in the background the guard will have a department that records its position every second.
(**) if the position is constantly changing the guard will continue on its course to the player.
(***) if the position has not changed more than 1 meter in the interval of 2 seconds, teleport guard to the player's position. [i.e. the guard is walking into a wall or something...]
4) Guard reaches player. Terminate the program discussed in (*), (**), and (***).
5) Guard kills player.
6) a) if there was use of step (***) teleport guard back to initial position.
6) b) if step (***) was not used, guard walks back to initial position.

I assume that Tindrem would be one of these highly guarded places - but having guards around Tindrem is something that I really hoped for. A city like Tindrem needs guards walking the streets.

What do you think, Mats?
Is what I suggested viable?

[Sandman]

Why not call upon God's wrath and then have them be vaporized

[Maleus Garyn]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

Me too. You are most welcome to give us suggestions on how to implement those immersion-and-fail-safe guards

Make the "mob-guards" have crossbows that they can shoot at players that are up on roofs etc. The lictor crossbows should have a powerful knockback that'll toss the wouldbe exploiters off the roofs. Then the guards can follow up by the normal means of chasing them down and beating the snot out of them with their swords.... if the criminals survived the fall that is.

Have the lictors use the crossbows anytime they can't reach the player they're after. Then the players trying to exploit would have to find a way to keep the guards from reaching them and breaking all other line-of-sight that the guards could use to shoot them.

Or... where Lore allows... how about Mage guards? Since magic is an integral part of Nave, why not have some guards that are magic wielders? Ranged attacks are what I'm getting at here. Why do the guards have to be melee?

[Awsten]

Wow just put in the guard towers, no need for all this nonsense spell casting or knockbacks or anything else... Powerful guards on the ground and in towers solves all problems and completely immerses you in the environment...

[TomBor]

Serious?

[enso]

I hope there will be a territory system so one Reds can control towns and set flags for every action and that Guards will attack according to that local "laws" ruleset at the time. Guards should cost upkeep to put money back into the economy and could be hired/fired and you would have to equip them or at least pay a standard cost or upgraded costs for difficulty(ai/gear).

Territory ruleset would be you have to do x to gain control of town then you get a menu at the city "town hall" building (throne) where there are columns for each different type of grouping of flags people are subject to (Guild, Alliance, Enemy"at war", Red, Blue)
each of these columns would have the same check boxes underneath displaying:
trade, pilfering, attack, magic, sheath, pushing, mounts, pets, crafting
There should also be a filter list where you input players name for "permit" so you can actually control your city and have havens for either type of shielded players even possibly neutral cities or strict archetypes either way.

[Alfa Bravo]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

Having guards running against walls or getting stuck at ladders while griefers are partying in the village is kinda immersion breaking too, don't you think?

I am just being realistic. We will develop the mob-Guards to our best extent - while at all times compare the cost of their AI behaviour against the possible number of players in the world, because they will be expensive

I believe that problem can be solved putting ARCHER GUARDS in high places, walls and towers (melee teleporting ones should come only if the archers couldn't kill the target in 15seconds, for exemple) Archers dont need to move, just aim and shoot. (expensive AI trouble solved)
They could even miss some arrows but would be cool to see their arrows after being shot.

[TomBor]

Mats, you asked and I answered you.
I want to hear your opinion about my answer to you.

Thanks

[SerenityMO]

What is it with the sudden guard towers obsession, are we all still talking about MO? You know the game where most bankers are inside arrow proof buildings. Are invulnerable guard towers or lightning bolt casting super guard mages much better than the place holder Lictor of death?

Maybe I misread Mats post but it sounded like we’re getting regular NPC guards with a special emergency teleport that they use if they can’t path to an exploiter. Not that giving guards a ranged attack is bad idea, but imagine a red agroing all the guards and holding up in a building with a blue accomplice blocking the door while the rest of the gang loot the town. People will probably find ways to exploit even teleporting guards but it will be challenging at least.

TomBor, your solution sounds fine provided that the guard doesn’t get glitched in to a movement loop. But I’m sure Mats can figure out how to detect a pathing failure on his own. I dare say the devs have been spending plenty of time looking at them for the other mobs lately.

[Awsten]

Originally Posted by SerenityMO

What is it with the sudden guard towers obsession, are we all still talking about MO? You know the game where most bankers are inside arrow proof buildings. Are invulnerable guard towers or lightning bolt casting super guard mages much better than the place holder Lictor of death?

Maybe I misread Mats post but it sounded like we’re getting regular NPC guards with a special emergency teleport that they use if they can’t path to an exploiter. Not that giving guards a ranged attack is bad idea, but imagine a red agroing all the guards and holding up in a building with a blue accomplice blocking the door while the rest of the gang loot the town. People will probably find ways to exploit even teleporting guards but it will be challenging at least.

TomBor, your solution sounds fine provided that the guard doesn’t get glitched in to a movement loop. But I’m sure Mats can figure out how to detect a pathing failure on his own. I dare say the devs have been spending plenty of time looking at them for the other mobs lately.

So put guards in banks, isn't that normal anyways? And since when are guard towers not an acceptable means of security, its much more immersing than teleporting guards and easier to implement. Draw up a couple models, plop em in stategic places and boom... You are done.

Guards should also execute the push command if they are being blocked by a blue player, only makes sense...

Sorry but the arguement for guard towers is much more solid than one for teleporting guards. I am even for mage guards up in guard towers and on the ground as well...

I am going to go ahead and claim this thread, I WIN!!!!

[TomBor]

If they have guard towers................I think I'll quit :O

The memories of the sound from Darkfall's towers... "pitchew!! pitchewiwoo!! pitchewiwoo!!" and my avatar going "Argh! Argh! Argh! Argh!"

And then: "Argh! Help me! ... ... ... Help me! ... ... ... Help me!" then someone comes with a greatsword and twists it in the air "swoosh swoosh swoshh" -> "ARRGGHHHH!"

Red Screen.

[Awsten]

Please do not compare Darkfall to Mortal Online. They completely screwed the entire concept of a guard tower.

What I am asking for is completely different and much more immersive than the lightning bolts of death from that game...

If I asked for siege would you say that is dumb because darfall had hovering tanks? Just because one game screwed over a concept doesn't mean it can't be properly implemented in the next.

[Alfa Bravo]

Guard towers with ranged attacks would guard the imersion, certainly.

[Taur0s]

Good lord, angry nerds everywhere !

[Maleus Garyn]

My suggestion wasn't that guards have ranged attacks exclusively... just that we give them ranged attacks, in lue of melee, in case they can't path to the criminal/exploiter. Then even if the players hold up on a building or tree or something, the guards would be able to attack them still if they just have line of sight. I think that'd be better than the emergency teleport.

As for guard towers... I don't think we should have towers like in Darkfall. But if guard NPCs were up in towers with bows, that'd be cool. Then we'd have actual guard towers and not the infinate range beams of destruction in Darkfall.

Edit: yeah, what Awsten is proposing is real guard towers, not Darkfall lighting towers. I'm in favor of having real guards in towers with bows, and guards on the ground with melee and ranged attackes available to them that patrol and some that are on station at strategic locations, i.e. banks.

[stem589]

The guard system will play a large role in what's possible in game for non-combat characters.

[Fullbordad]

Originally Posted by Sandman

Why not call upon God's wrath and then have them be vaporized

Would actually be cooler then teleporting guards.

High security: Beam of powah from god that executes murderers
Medium security: Walking guards that are hard to escape/kill
Small security: Noob guards

[Awsten]

Yah and while were at it how bout just have them explode if they hit a player...

Or save us the trouble and just make it so people cannot even swing at players in cities...

Above is sarcasim... Just implement ranged guards as well in strategic locations on the ground and in high vantage points...

[Fullbordad]

Originally Posted by Awsten

Yah and while were at it how bout just have them explode if they hit a player...

Or save us the trouble and just make it so people cannot even swing at players in cities...

Above is sarcasim... Just implement ranged guards as well in strategic locations on the ground and in high vantage points...

Just looking at another playing for more then a secound should be considered a serious crime, and you and the full friendlist you have will die.

Painfully

[Raziel]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

An AI able to follow players everywhere (and do so in a somewhat intelligent behavior as to not break the immersion) would cost immense server-resources, and take a very very long time to develop. MO is a free environment where you can climb roofs, eventually also ladders, take cover behind things etc. As for instance Assassins Creed couldn't even make it work in a triple-A next-gen single-player game, do you sincerely believe we could make one in an MMO? Having guards running against walls or getting stuck at ladders while griefers are partying in the village is kinda immersion breaking too, don't you think?

A lot of MMO have guards that doesn't appear instantly and it works pretty well. Ok, it's not as good as Assassin's Creed 2 AI (most of them don't move, they just run after a enemy when they detect him) but it's still much more fun and immersive than a "/guards".

Like every one in beta can see, you still have big problems with your AI. I can understand that you can't fix all of this problems right now. But, at least, tell us you'll try to fix them and that you'll try to develop a nice an interssant guards system. Don't tell us you won't do it because it will take to much time...

For now if you have problems with guards running into a wall or getting stuck into a ladder, just make them use the /stuck command after 5 seconds they don't change place, while walking .

[Fullbordad]

Originally Posted by Raziel

A lot of MMO have guards that doesn't appear instantly and it works pretty well. Ok, it's not as good as Assassin's Creed 2 AI (most of them don't move, they just run after a enemy when they detect him) but it's still much more fun and immersive than a "/guards".

Like every one in beta can see, you still have big problems with your AI. I can understand that you can't fix all of this problems right now. But, at least, tell us you'll try to fix them and that you'll try to develop a nice an interssant guards system. Don't tell us you won't do it because it will take to much time...

For now if you have problems with guards running into a wall or getting stuck into a ladder, just make them use the /stuck command after 5 seconds they don't change place, while walking .

He didn't only say it would take time, but tremendous server-resources too. Not worth it

[Raziel]

Originally Posted by Fullbordad

He didn't only say it would take time, but tremendous server-resources too. Not worth it

So why don't they just made a simple Tetris Online

[worma]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

An AI able to follow players everywhere (and do so in a somewhat intelligent behavior as to not break the immersion) would cost immense server-resources, and take a very very long time to develop. MO is a free environment where you can climb roofs, eventually also ladders, take cover behind things etc. As for instance Assassins Creed couldn't even make it work in a triple-A next-gen single-player game, do you sincerely believe we could make one in an MMO? Having guards running against walls or getting stuck at ladders while griefers are partying in the village is kinda immersion breaking too, don't you think?

But it works perfect in WoW?

[Fullbordad]

Originally Posted by worma

But it works perfect in WoW?

Wow doesn't have hitboxes or free aim. And the guards spawn in wow too.

[SarisMO]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

An AI able to follow players everywhere (and do so in a somewhat intelligent behavior as to not break the immersion) would cost immense server-resources, and take a very very long time to develop. MO is a free environment where you can climb roofs, eventually also ladders, take cover behind things etc. As for instance Assassins Creed couldn't even make it work in a triple-A next-gen single-player game, do you sincerely believe we could make one in an MMO? Having guards running against walls or getting stuck at ladders while griefers are partying in the village is kinda immersion breaking too, don't you think?

could could give the guards bows, like guards in Oblivion or you could make them fly, I assure I was chased down by a flying pig yesterday their was no where to hide.

[gbrish]

Originally Posted by SarisMO

could could give the guards bows, like guards in Oblivion or you could make them fly, I assure I was chased down by a flying pig yesterday their was no where to hide.

I dont really have a point here I just wanted to point out the guards in Oblivion were retarded and easy to avoid

[SarisMO]

I should have just said give them bows and omitted the elder-scrolls reference :P


Bows would mean less telifragging guards though? maybe.
then again i missed that this was already discussed starting the 3rd post down.


I do like the idea of using range to deal with folks that climb on things and find little ways to get places a mob could not. OR make them teleport only if the offender breaks LOS be using the before mentioned technique.

Hate to bring it up, but kinda the way mobs in UO reacted a few years back after a patch, if you broke line of site by blocking them, they would teleport if they had any magery

[BigStackOfBeef]

Why not a GTA police system. 1 to 6 star. The more bad stuff you do, the more chance you have to get a plus 1 star. a single player would never be strong enough to cross 2 stars, but a large guild could be strong enough to reach 6 stars.

When you reach 3 stars, guards should start to spawn in tower watch shooting at all the bad players with a real bow. Not a zap tower please, i want time travel and we should be able to get in those tower watch to kill the guards. I could go on teal 6 stars, but you see where im going so il leave you with this so use your imagination base on the GTA police system.

Anyway, i hate the guards teleporting idea's. What i suggest, guards should be able to climb on walls. Its unrealistic, but better then TP. They should also be able to use range weapons.