Roleplay and You

[Mathael]

I've always been a huge fan of roleplaying, and I deeply promote it to others out there who also share the philosophy. Though after reading on the most recently active thread on the Roleplay and Lore forum, one of the things up for debate is whether separate servers should exist.

My own opinions are that regardless of whether labeling such a server or not, the basis of great roleplay rests solely on the community adhering to it. So, debates aside on whether a roleplaying server should exist or not, I think we should get into discussing the actual roleplay aspect itself.

Most of the things I'll be posting are some things I've gathered along the way. Most notably though are from several distinct members that I had the pleasure of knowing in an Age of Conan guild called Death and Debauchery. There are plenty of information out there, but I think the best is gained from experience. However, most of the stuff I post below are things I've picked up from the past, and re-hashed here from other RPers I've had the liberty to interact with. If you require links to their primary essay sources, I'd be glad to give any information out.

Don't be shy about posting your opinions either, a good discussion is a constructive one.



*****

Table of Contents

I. What is Roleplay?

II. Types of Roleplaying.

III. Postulates of Roleplay.

IV. Character choices and consequences.

V. Metagaming - the don't of Roleplay.

*****

I. What is Roleplay?

In my opinion, roleplay is where the player acts out his character on a more interactive level. He/she engages in the world around them and formulate decisions based on what the character wishes to do, or not to do. It is taking the out of players personal feelings out of the decision making process, but of course, with varying degrees for various types of roleplayers. I feel that the best types of roleplayers are the ones that act out their characters lives, yet are still able to distinguish the actions occurring on their avatars on an impersonal out of character level. Again, there are various degrees of roleplayer types that exist that do need addressing.

[Mathael]

II. Types of Roleplayers

i) Serious / hardcore roleplayers

These players take the actions of their characters on a serious level. I don't mean on an out of character level, but from a purely in character perspective. They understand the consequences surrounding certain decisions, as well as the rewards open to them if they succeed with such acts.

These types of players will generally know how to distinguish between in character conflicts from out of character dramas. They understand that what happens in the virtual world does not necessarily affect them on an out of character or personal player level, but purely on the avatars whom they control.

In my books, these are the true roleplayers, the ones who will play out the scenario based on what judgments they think their characters will take but not adding the personal emotions into the equation. They'll accept that they hate a certain character on an in character basis, but would not hold a grudge on the player on an out of character manner.

While I understand that it may be difficult to watch certain players doing certain actions to your character, the distinction on the players mind will truly matter. If your character was a murderer all his life, would he suddenly have a change of heart to save a man from a man-eating crocodile? Or would he sit back, enjoy the slaughter and try to fish whatever remains he can from the croc. Likewise, if your character was a captured slave and was lashed for disobeying his master. Would you act out his choice by having him attempt to break free from the chains or verbally insult the taskmaster knowing full well the consequence are further punishment or perhaps even death?

It has always been my firm belief that serious / hardcore roleplayers are the ones that take the consequences to heart and would not act out of accordance to their characters limitations. While one may feel anger for an increase in taxes, a shy law-abiding citizen would not start killing guards and hitting back at the authorities without some great cause pushing him towards this action.

ii) Casual / light roleplayers

These type of roleplayers are not as serious as the other category listed above but are still eager to adopt the roleplaying doctrine. They may not calculate and dissect the consequences of their characters actions with close precision but would still happily engage in conduct with others.

In my opinion, these are the types that would go to taverns and locally chat with others but would not take the consequences of say, a bar fight on the same degree as a more serious roleplayer. They may shrug it off, and forget about it until someone else mentions the ruckus, only to remember they were present and tell their part of the event.

There is nothing wrong with casual / light roleplayers. These type of roleplayers may not be on the same level of seriousness that the more hardcore ones are, but their respect for the roleplaying community is still evident.

[Mathael]

III. Postulates of Roleplay

These are certain beliefs that I feel constitutes good roleplay. They are certainly not an absolute guide that everyone should follow, but in my opinion accentuates in fostering great roleplay.

i) Respecting each other

I think this is an important point to make in that players should respect one another, even on a non-roleplaying scene. People who generally respect one another will have better time interacting. If you dislike the person on an out of character level, then don't take your own personal feelings into the roleplaying scenario.

It will generally end in a bad way because you wish to bring your strong feelings on the player onto his or her character. Remember that the characters they control are not genuinely 100% representing the player, and while their actions may constitute certain reactions, it can escalate to an area where both players are no longer roleplaying but instead trying to rip each others throats out on an OOC level.

Remember that respecting each other can go a long way. They will be more attentive to what your character is doing and also more responsive in a constructive manner. If you blatantly or repeatedly ignore another player's actions then they in turn will give you the silent treatment.

ii) Distinguishing from IC and OOC

Great roleplaying is where separation between one and the other occurs. Whether it is through own player / character feelings, or through certain knowledge. A lot of drama that occurs through roleplaying that I have experienced is where one person metagames. This is where they take the out of character information and apply it to an in character scenario. Metagaming is arguably a killjoy for serious roleplayers and will often cause plenty of grief.

Since I feel this is an important and often devious occurrence in the roleplaying scene, I'll dedicate a more detailed section towards it.

iii) Making other people look cool

This is something that I discovered from my recent days on Age of Conan and the guild D&D. It was posted by a very respectable roleplayer I knew named Indrajit. Anyway, it is a simple doctrine that I feel adds to good roleplay.

The purpose of your character is not to make yourself look cool, but rather to make the other person look cool. In turn, it is his or her job to make you look cool. This will of course go both ways, and I firmly believe that it is tied to the point I made on respect.

If I choose to brag about myself as the greatest warrior in the lands, but everyone surrounding me sees me as a little coward, then my attempt at being cool is not very uplifting. If instead I choose to promote someone else, admire his skills and proclaim it to others, then they will perceive him or her with more respect. He or she in turn will do the same for me.

The point here is that by making others look cool then you are trusting them to do the same for you. Nobody likes a bragger, even in an RP setting. You would generally have more respect for a boxer if his manager promoted him as oppose to him promoting himself. Similarly, if Brutus the Barbarian came into the bar and started jumping up and down claiming he's slayed a giant bear with his bear hands, people will either look at him with admiration or shrug it off. But if Nikos the Ranger was present and told others that he saw Brutus rip to shreds a wolf with his hands, then he would probably get more respect, even if the animal was a lesser one.

With that being said, there needs to be something to tie the cool factor to. You simply cannot be the shyest person in town who rarely lifts a hand to speak and expect people to treat you like the Fonz. You as the player need to make your character interesting so that others can flaunt your coolness. You in turn do the same for them in a forward motion.

iv) Ordinary breeds extraordinary

Something that I feel strongly about is that players who roleplay out believable characters are the ones that are realistic. While that being said, I understand that your creativity is your own limit, but what constitute roleplay is the act and not the end. You as a player are the ultimate decider of your characters fate. No one truly knows the motive and action better than you, but roleplaying within a believable norm allows for more realistic scenarios.

Remember that being an omnipotent being that simply cannot die is good and all, but what are your characters motivations for being in a local tavern? It is far more believable to be a simple bar maid working within the tavern than an all powerful being who could be on top of a mountain.

Besides, who is to say that the bar maid, a seemingly ordinary character isn't acting on extraordinary means?Perhaps she is an intelligence broker acting for the local thieves guild, whose purpose is to broker snippets of information. The purpose is not clear to everyone else, it is up to you as the player. But I would certainly like to interact with the bar maid more than the omnipotent being.

v) Work your way from the bottom to the top

This can certainly be linked back to number iv. Similar to being ordinary, the social ladder is also one of importance. To roleplay a character from the top is difficult, simply because there is no more goals to achieve. Going up the social ladder and working your way is like a journey in itself.

By beginning your journey at the bottom, you have certain goals to achieve. These goals essentially build upon each other, for example you could be a street urchin wishing to get out of poverty. Your goal could be to seek shelter and have a stable income. Once you have achieved this, you would turn your attention towards perhaps making a fortune. This could be through merchant trading, opening a shop or picking up a certain craft. Once more, you can build upon these skills. You could aim to be the best weaponsmith in the lands, but to achieve this you must first learn the skill, become reputably and work to achieve towards this goal.

By starting at the top of the ladder, the only thing you can achieve is to descend. Sure if being the King of a castle and having servants is your forte, but what else is there to achieve after this? Your reputation is undoubtedly wide-spread, but where do your enemies lie? Are assassins after you, do opposing armies wish to invade? Simply because you are at the top, others will wish to seek your downfall, so that they can attain your lofty position.

Ranking breeds jealousy, and while the urchin I outlined earlier will encounter it along the way as well, the fact is that less people will want his status in life than that of the Kings.

[Mathael]

IV. Character choices and consequences.

I described in my section of hardcore / serious roleplay that character consequences usually matter. The types of consequences though will also depend on the type of player. If your character is a thief whose job is to steal from others, would he risk it if the odds of getting caught astronomical? Or if the punishment was severe enough? If he got caught, would he play out the scenario with conviction or shrug if off as simply something minor that happened in the past.

Here I feel is where serious / hardcore roleplayers will be divided from the casual / light roleplayers. While both categories may undertake the consequences of getting caught, the level of severity will be very different. Let's say the crime was pickpocketing and that the player was caught by a constable. The fitting crime in this case may be imprisonment, a fine or even one more physical. With this scenario I'll use the latter to distinguish between the two categories of roleplayers. If the thief is treated with a punishment of breaking the fingers in their right hand, how might different types of roleplayers act out the scenario differently?

i) Injuries

If we remove the aspect of instant healing or fixes associated with practically all the MMOs these days. Simply take the health factor out of the equation and pretend that there are no miracle cures that befits a low magic world setting.

A serious / hardcore roleplayer would probably take the punishment seriously. They will act out their character as if the punishment was real and lasted more than one day. They may even stop equipping weapons with their right hand and instead choose to use either their left or avoid combat at all costs. They may even wear a bandage around their fingers trying to mend the wounds, or consult a healer to set the bones in alignment. It could take days, weeks until that character is fit for ambidextrous combat again.

On the other side, you have the light / casual roleplayer. These players would probably not take the injury with the same severity. They may claim that there is pain and such but would probably not go to the same lengths as a more serious roleplayer would. After a day, they would may perceive the injury as healed and ready to fight again.

Also, what if the punishment was a broken leg? Would the casual / light roleplayer have their character bedridden for days or weeks, or have them make a clicking noise each time they walk even after full recovery.

What if we took this further...

ii) Permadeath - but as the last possible avenue

This is probably another subject up for debate. I'm not here to post support for a permadeath system (I personally dislike it in an MMO arena), but simply on an individual, roleplayers choice. I think a permadeath system can work, but it is something that has to be regulated and moderated by the roleplaying community or strictly within guilds. It doesn't have to mean that you delete your character, it just simply means that your character is dead from an in character basis. He or she can still be available for OOC things such as mini games pvp or dungeon style raiding (but since MO won't have these it is something that has to be modified).

I think the concern about permadeath though is that one, players feel it can be abused or two, that they have invested so much time and effort into their characters that they do not wish to see it dead... permanently. I think if a more clear approach on the subject can be viewed, it would certainly uplift various doubts plaguing some.

In the guild that I was a part of in Age of Conan, a permadeath system existed but it was not something that was regularly given out. It was only for the greatest severity that the guild master would issue it, and certainly only after full player consent. I feel that for this system to work it really needs to be the last avenue of punishment from a roleplaying perspective. Permadeath was the final resort, it meant that either the player no longer wanted to play their character or that their crimes were so outstanding that nothing else was warrantable.

What as most important though was that the players themselves gave the final consent and allow for the dissolution of one of their creation. Remember that the postulates above should hold, and that others cannot decide the final outcome of your character. It is up to the players themselves, through knowledge of consequences and risk vs. reward that whether pursuing the path would be beneficial or not. And it was only through the severity that such a punishment was given out, and not something without clear conscious and prior thought.

An example that I'll give to what constituted permadeath within our guild ranged from various things. Most often though it was sedition against the ruling Lord of the city (the guild is formulated around a guild / player run city) but even at times, it was not the final outcome. Various characters in the guild I have known to try and assassinate the Lord, and not once was the initial order to kill them off. Instead there are other things one can do such as enslavement or punishment. Things such as these open new avenues of roleplay rather than closing it.

You may support my ideas on permadeath or not, but I personally feel it can work but only from a serious / hardcore roleplayers perspective. Casual / light roleplayers tend to have short memories on certain IC matters, and there is a high degree of trust as well as respect that must be attained for it to work. Once again, I implore that I do not support a permadeath system in the game mechanics, but instead leave it up to the roleplaying community or the guild to decide for itself. Remember that there are other consequences that befit certain crimes better than death. Like humiliation.

iii) Risk vs. reward

I'd just like to build up on the two points of consequences that I outlined above. The idea of risk vs. reward is a concept I feel is linked towards them. While players may wish to pertain a certain rank of position, what are the means on reaching them? Perhaps it is through nefarious means but one thing that I feel is highly important in serious / hardcore roleplaying are the consequences associated.

If you do not feel that there are risks involved with attaining a certain rank or position then you would try to achieve it without hesitation. But once you add the equation of risks, then things get more interesting. Even in the case of the thief, is the benefit from pickpocketing greater than the possible punishment of broken fingers?

The idea of risk vs. reward therefore is closely tied to those of consequences. I feel that all ranks on an in character basis are contestable, even that of a Lord within a city. However one must also be aware of metagaming and absolutely avoid this at all cost. It is all well and good that you know the person playing the Lord is in the toilet, vulnerable for an assassin kill, but how does your character, a lowly street urchin become aware of this information? Moreover, how does one beat down the guards and get through to the Lord when urchins are not known for their fighting prowess.

[Mathael]

V. Metaming - the don't of roleplay

i) What is metagaming?

This is the act of taking out of character information onto an in character level. A prime example of this is looking at the world map on forums and constituting it onto a character who has never left the borders surrounding his village. Sure perhaps he has seen the map from some source within, but the degree of accuracy will probably be contestable. It's not limited to this alone either, there are other forms of metagaming that exists.

ii) Acting out someone else's character without their permission

This is another prime example of metagaming. It is where whilst interacting with other people, you are performing an action of another player without their prior permission. Acts of this generally evolve around violence or acting out the other person's emotion. It's essentially forcing the other player to respond in a way that they may not originally wish to.



This would be metagaming:

::Rosy surveys the room, batting her eyelashes as all the patrons lock their gaze at her. Drool drops from their mouths and sounds of wolf-whistles erupt from all the corners of the bar, cheering her on::


This would not:

::Rosy surveys the room, batting her eyelashes. She smiles and waves her hair around in a fluid motion, weaving it delicately through the air::


So the distinction between the example given is that one undertakes only the actions dictated to the given character and does not represent those around. Surely a motion such as that would produce a raucous response but it is not Rosy who decides HOW they respond, it is whether they have REASON to.

[Lachrymose]

wow... i'll have to take a look at this later. even though i'm not an RPer, this seems like an interesting read, especially since i don't know much about RPing at all.

[Resin]

I would give you +1 rep, but apparently I need to spread it around first.
Regardless, very nice job Matheal.

For myself I guess I would say casual RP.
I like getting into my character, but I don't force it if I'm not feeling it.
I don't particularly like pretending things are happening if the game mechanics are not supporting that. If I broke my leg, and the game says a healer fixed it in less than a minute, then the healer fixed it in less then a minute. Miraculous but true!
If people get Ressurected, then Resurections are a fact of life in the game world, nothing to bat an eye at. I don't want to pretend otherwise. Some people do and I think this can be the source of drama, my feelings on this is that my character thinks their character is perhaps a bit touched in the head.

As for separation of IC and OOC. I want to be into my character and for my IC actions and reactions to be as beleivable and as devoid of artifice as possible. This can make the separation difficult, but I would think of IC enemies much like an opposing sports team, you leave the aggression on the field, and you show good sportsmanship even when it stings a little. This however does not disclude OOC dislikes when someone is just nasty OOC. It all comes back to respect, show it to others and hopefully it will be returned.

[LightsabeR]

Very nice post Mathael, definitely a worthwhile read, even for a non-RPer such as myself.

I'll give the +1 rep then, since Resin can't :P .

[Archaaz]

A very well thought out and thorough post, particularly the part about metagaming (god-modding).Of course, god-modding in an MMO is quite a bit different than in a forum-based role-play.

Much of my role-playing is limited to my time in UO and to role-playing on forums (mostly for the upcoming game Adellion), two entirely different animals. Personally, I would consider myself a hardcore role-player insomuch as I always attempt to stay in character, whatever that character may be (and this is often nothing more complicated than a lighthearted wise-cracking rogue, heavy on light banter and keen on puns.). That said, if I am situated with those who have no wish to role-play, I will likely curtail this somewhat (though not completely). In that sense I might fall more squarely in the casual role-play category. Either way, I am unable to play the game merely as a game based on stats and numbers and other concrete features. My imagination always gets the better of me.

Indeed, role-play, at its most basic level would entail little more than moving an avatar through an imaginary world. So, in a sense every player who plays an MMO (or very nearly any other game) is role-playing. And yet, as you so eloquently point out, there is a deeper meaning to the notion. I look at collaborative role-playing, whether it be in an MMO or taking part in a shared story on a forum, as participating in a collective effort not to tear down the fourth wall, not to shatter the suspension of disbelief. It is more than merely playing a game, it is becoming an actual part of it. It is the shared, extemporaneous actions of a group of actors on a stage; scriptless and uncertain. Each relies on the other not to let on the emperor has no clothes. In an MMO, the more natural and believable the environment, the more props available, the less the actors have to rely purely on imagination and artifice and the more naturally the “story” can take place. In short, the more we move away from a stilted approach to this acting toward the style of the method actor, the more natural the performance, until it doesn’t feel like acting at all. It is largely (though not solely) for this reason that I am for permadeath, aging, the need to eat and drink, the effects of weather, wounds, etc. Anything that makes the world more immersive. The other reason I am for these is emergent behavior, but we have been over that on several occasions.

I feel that my own style very closely resembles Resin’s, at least as far as MMO‘s go (forum-based is another story entirely). I generally have a pretty good idea of who my character is, of his or her place in the overall world, but within that framework I prefer to simply react to the world itself. I do not create, and rarely participate in, elaborate player-created scenarios. And so, the more immersive the world is, the more features it has to draw me in, the more satisfying and ultimately more believable the role-play. I do not feel compelled to create anything more than a consistent personality for my character, a set of quirks, motivations, etc. With these I can interact with other players who have similarly developed characters (and this could be as minimalist an effort as not bringing real world elements into the game). And yet, I can work any element into the role-play (even outrageously named PKs) especially if I am in the company of a few similarly-minded individuals.

In an attempt to explain why I do not generally enjoy the more hardcore theatrical, often melodramatic, RP and instead prefer the role-playing style of simply reacting to the world (not that either is better or worse), I would say it is a personal preference for the authentic vs. the artificial, or rather the covertly artificial, for the obviously artificial. This likely seems a ridiculous notion when discussing a fantasy role-playing game, but I do find it enormously more compelling to simply interact with the environment and role-play around what it gives me, as well as interacting with my fellow players, than to make up additional, wholly artificial stories outside of and on top of it, if that makes any sense. It is like watching an authentic, believable performance vs. one that is affected or over the top. Thus I am left with a character story based on my perceptions of actual game events and consequences.

[Tincovilya]

Wow, I read a bit of that, not my cup of tea (obviously), but very well put together and very informing if you are uninformed or just wanted to know a little more about role playing. Well done

[Resin]

Originally Posted by Archaaz

I look at collaborative role-playing, whether it be in an MMO or taking part in a shared story on a forum, as participating in a collective effort not to tear down the fourth wall, not to shatter the suspension of disbelief.

This is the essence of it all to me.

[Elfvis]

Gonna have to check this for plagerism : P LOL

Very good read.

I myself ONLY in online video games Roleplay. Why only Online? Well I do not have a friend base that would consider RPing as something, fun, interesting, or worthy of their time. Online I can assume my own person for the game, for my class and live it out in my interactions in the world. Maybe I am not a hardcore roleplayer but I like the game to feel like its filled with stories. Each person then brings there own story with them when encountered. I think this "story" is more like there first impression. You see what they look like and therefore that says something about the player that is controlling them. You can even sometimes see there mannerisms. I mean if I were to meet say mose online I am not that guy saying, "HAIL, how art thou!". That to me isn't how I play. I just talk how my character would talk and its in a modern convention. I think you wouldn't even know I was roleplaying if you were right next to me to a certain extent.

[Mathael]

Originally Posted by Elfvis

Gonna have to check this for plagerism : P LOL

Very good read.

I myself ONLY in online video games Roleplay. Why only Online? Well I do not have a friend base that would consider RPing as something, fun, interesting, or worthy of their time. Online I can assume my own person for the game, for my class and live it out in my interactions in the world. Maybe I am not a hardcore roleplayer but I like the game to feel like its filled with stories. Each person then brings there own story with them when encountered. I think this "story" is more like there first impression. You see what they look like and therefore that says something about the player that is controlling them. You can even sometimes see there mannerisms. I mean if I were to meet say mose online I am not that guy saying, "HAIL, how art thou!". That to me isn't how I play. I just talk how my character would talk and its in a modern convention. I think you wouldn't even know I was roleplaying if you were right next to me to a certain extent.

Aye, I usually keep roleplaying on an online basis. The good thing about playing online in my opinion, is that other players really don't put assumptions on your real life self onto your character.

I think not forcing the roleplay allows it to flow more freely. Some people out there see communicating is restricted to only things like, "hail, how art thou" but in most settings, this wouldn't be fitting. The best conversations I've had whilst roleplaying were ones that weren't forced but on a more casual level. Even explaining a quest you accomplished can constitute roleplay, and throwing character emotions into the mix makes it more interesting.

[Elfvis]

Originally Posted by Mathael

Aye, I usually keep roleplaying on an online basis. The good thing about playing online in my opinion, is that other players really don't put assumptions on your real life self onto your character.

I think not forcing the roleplay allows it to flow more freely. Some people out there see communicating is restricted to only things like, "hail, how art thou" but in most settings, this wouldn't be fitting. The best conversations I've had whilst roleplaying were ones that weren't forced but on a more casual level. Even explaining a quest you accomplished can constitute roleplay, and throwing character emotions into the mix makes it more interesting.

I find it most ammusing when someone is just having a casual conversation asking things like age, where I live, etc and they really don't pick up on the fact that I am giving them information on my in game character and not me : P

[Traceur]

grand posts here, for certain. however, you'll forgive me as i approach the topic from the exact opposite direction - or rather - describe the full circle, as it was from my own experiences.


the journey through loreplay to roleplay & back:


part zero: into loreplaying

you start as yourself - you know nothing else. through some media, whether an MUD or MMO, whether the words of a GM or the surrounding of a LARP, you find yourself in the context of a different world.
at the start, you only see the immediate elements around you, and you try them out, play with them, you see how they fit to you, what you can do with them... now you are simply playing.
then you become curious - why are they like they are? you find out their lore, and it intrigues you & captivates you - you start grasping the world around you, what is behind it & what it means, and as the knowledge sinks in, you start to act upon it:
you have just discovered loreplaying.


part 1: from loreplayer to roleplayer

now that you realize the lore, and act upon what it means to you & since as part of human nature in lack of self-confidence we tend to be egocentric missionaries of our own being & way of life, you try to get others to follow.... but then your going to find a very curious phenomena: they don't really follow even when they say they do - they do not act the same as you, and while initially you think that maybe they it is because they do not understand the lore, as you adapt yourself to their mindset you'll often find that they do.... it's just that other people act on the same things differently & perceive different meanings for themselves out of the same lore.

you ask yourself: why do i get inspired one way and other people in other ways?
you then go into the depth of how you've defined yourself in the context of the lore & how others did so differently, and you have just found a new toy to play with - self-definition.

once you start playing with that new toy & try to define yourself in different ways in the context of the world, your going to accumulate better tools to define yourself by: cultural heritages, skills & profession, history, family, relationships & loved ones, are all examples of things you'll find in your disposal. as your skills & toolset grows, you are able to formulate great characters & new persona's - you are able to bring deeper & richer characters to life - and you want to show them to others fully as you can express them: you are now a roleplayer.


part 2: from roleplaying to loreplay

roleplay - what is that? what is the essence of asking what your character would do instead of doing you would do? there is a word for it: detachment - self-escape. the essence here is one of detaching yourself from the character, of being an over searing deity on the expression of your character's personality, it's scriptwriter & actor.

and you can be a pretty good writer & actor, but then you reach a roof: real people evolve, they experience personal growth throughout their journey, they have paradoxes & inner conflicts... real people act out of character, roleplay characters do not. as is often said by historians: "reality doesn't need to meet your expectations to be realistic".

from this point on, if you want to become a better roleplayer, one with deep & compelling characters, your going to need to create ones that - simply by the fact of being human - you will be able to relate too, and being able to relate to them mean that your going to relate to them - the more you will resist, the less capable you will be to create & act out good characters.

in the process, you will loose the pleasure found in self-detachment, but you will unavoidably find another: self-exploration. as you understand further & further the depths of your character, simply by writing it, you will see how your characters relate to you - and the more you do this, the more you will find out about yourself, and the better you will be capable of seeing that relation - in a self-feeding loop. your characters become more & more aspects of yourself.

and you can do this forever, you can be a damn good roleplayer with deep human compelling characters - unless you make a choice to use role-playing as a tool for self-development. you gain insight into your own self, and now you need to ask yourself: do i use it? do i integrate those depths i found in my potential self into my real self?

the answer is unavoidably yes, at least it was for me. once you've tasted a depth of your subconscious, of your potential personality, you want more, you want it to be part of you, even if you have done so though characters, you by now understand that they are merely potential extensions of your own inner self, and all that stands between you and growing into them - is guts.

once you have the self esteem to pursue it, you grow into becoming the the sum of your potential characters. now your shell is broken - you are one with yourself - you can no longer detach from your character, because any "aspect of yourself" that you might tailor into a character is already in you, anything your character could think of doing, is something you can think of doing yourself. at this point self-exploration while still being an ever-going process, is now conscious, it does no longer built on detachment - you are fulfilling your own exploration as you go along.

as previously you lost the pleasure of detachment in roleplaying - you now have lost the pleasure of self-exploration in roleplaying, because you do no longer need it to self-explore. now, whenever you want to 'roleplay', you can only act out one deep & rich & realistic character: yourself. it is no longer roleplaying - you are being yourself in another world, in the context of different lore - you are loreplaying. the pleasure you gain now is not detachment or self-exploration, but simply environmental escapism, escaping from the real world where all your problems are into an alternative world with an alternative life, because by this point - you are facing the consequences of being yourself.


part zero: and back

but this places you in the exact opposite relations: the very detachment that has once being your friend, has now become your enemy, because now you want to simply be yourself in an immersing world, and while for the roleplayer you really don't need anything but your own mind to act your role other then other people, as a loreplayer circumstances where what makes sense for you due to the game does not make sense to your character being in that world - lead it detachment - to feel you do not fit within that world - they essentially lead you to think "this is just a game". while roleplaying comes from adapting to your surrounding, now as a loreplayer you try to adapt your surrounding to you, to give you fitting circumstances, to apply the context. you want the environment to be as less hypothetical as it can possibly be: the more convincing it is as real life the more you escape from your own life. and again it's a self-feeding loop: the escapist environment has it's own uncanny valley, the more immersion you get the more you need to be more immersed... and it will unavoidably eventually disappoint.

you are now confident enough to be yourself, the character does not give you escapism from the self - but neither does the fictional world or life give you escapism from your life and the consequances of being yourself... so you have to deal with them or change them, to grow, and when we have to do something we tend to do it - you become fullfilled with your own existence from the inside & the outside - and as a result you have grown out of roleplay and out of loreplay, and basically: you have grown out of escapism.

no matter if it's in a MUD or MMO, the GM lore book or the LARP setting, it does no longer provide you with negative liberty that is of any use for you - there is no stick - so there has to be a carrot - the RPG medium has to give you something else for you to stick to it. and thankfully, there are plenty of other desires - escapism is just one of the many.


important note: you may have perceived a certain degree of arrogance from me as i tell you that one thing is 'more mature' then the other. but if you are a good roleplayer, then you understand that different things carry different meanings for different people, so just the same: i simply described here my own experience, out of what roleplay & lore play have meant for me, and how i have personally mature through them.

p.s.
the above is a sample of a short article series that will soon be featured as a section in a currently under-construction blog site. i do not want to perticipate in the sham that the intelectual property game has become in recent years, nor to give you the facade that i actually have the money to find you & persue a lawsuit if you'd break such laws. so please respect my desire for claiming my own writings to myself and do not copy & paste it - if you want - you can simply link to it.

[Mathael]

A great insight Traceur. I thoroughly enjoyed seeing this form another perspective and thank you for sharing your experiences. I must admit that in the beginning before roleplaying, I started off as a loreplayer, without really knowing it. It was really simply to understand the surrounding world, the history, culture and characters that surrounded mine in order to feel more connected. I think the evolution is there, once you begin to understand the surroundings, you become more immersed towards it and begin to feel as a part of it. In that proposition, I probably relate more to your first point and have not moved from being a roleplayer towards a loreplayer.

It has been one of my fundamental view to keep a distance between the character I create and my own real life persona. Although a connection to the character does exist, especially when loss or triumph is achieved, by distancing myself it sort of allows me from keeping personal judgments from clouding those choices of the character.

I think loreplay is an important thing, and is often mislooked by those aren't even aware they are undertaking it. It certainly is, from my personal experience, a prerequisite step into initiating roleplay. Even in games where I wouldn't roleplay, ie first person shooters or strategy games, it is the environment escapism associated with the loreplay that is present and makes the game eve better.

[LightsabeR]

God that was a long one Trac, gonna read it when I'm sober. (EDIT incoming)

[Resin]

I guess Lore player might be a term better suited to me than roleplayer.
Would you consider a method actor to be more like a Lore player or Role player?

Good luck with the blog site Tracuer; be sure to post us a link when it's up.

[Carcharoth]

Great post on roleplaying, a couple of times (like the metagaming thing) I needed an example, and you certainly delivered there.

[Mathael]

Originally Posted by Carcharoth

Great post on roleplaying, a couple of times (like the metagaming thing) I needed an example, and you certainly delivered there.

If you need anymore clarification or examples, then please don't hesitate to ask .

[Haltair]

thanks for the post llong to read, but very good.

[Mathael]

Bumping it up so newer members can share their insights, or read some of the ones posted above.

[Resin]

I think this thread deserves a sticky.

[Honorzeal]

Originally Posted by Resin

I think this thread deserves a sticky.

I agree.

Well thought out post, mate

+1 to you, Mathael

[catmorbid]

Great post Mathael!

I personally see the problem of bad roleplaying in online games due to people not knowing what roleplaying is. Especially metagaming issues is something that in PnP games would be immediately rooted out by the GM. But in online games it's more difficult to control this, because they are basically your everyday ePenis enlargement software.

So for someone to right a constructive post like this about roleplaying, is very good, because you can use it to show people interested in RP what it should be about. I've found that good RP needs good encouragement to come up. Especially defining the role needs that you have tools at your disposal, which most mmos lack. They lack them because they are not actually created with RP in mind. That makes getting into the role a bit difficult, and that's also why you get a majority of these light roleplayers.

I don't do serious RP in online games, simply because I can't expect everyone else to do the same, and when I can't expect everyone else to do the same, it takes the point of my serious and deep roleplaying. Of course, on occasion you can have some real good moments of serious RP, but most of the time it isn't so . Unless, you have a heavy RP guild whom are the only people you interact with at any time - which also is stupid and inbred, taking the whole idea of the "massively multiplayer" away.

I could say that in mmos I'm more of the Loreplayer Traceur's talking about, while in PnP I'm definitely a hardcore roleplayer. However, I've noticed that in PnP the quality of RP depends on how the rewards in the game are distributed. I.e. do you get exp from killing monsters only, and performing quests, or is exp based on how well you did roleplaying. The latter always gives out better RP sessions.

So if we'd to have anywhere similar quality of RP in online games, what we would need is an experience system where other roleplayers would reward your roleplaying efforts in form of experience points - in a slightly similar way how reputation points are given in these forums. Such a system would probably be impossible to create - or heavily flawed at best, but since you can't have thousands of GM's evaluate peoples' RP performance...

Anyway, it'd make a fine social experiment =)

What was my point here? Did I have one? Oh yeah: RP in MMO's over to PnP/LARP is very different. MMO's have too much you need to rely on just roleplaying, just like the example of getting your hand cut off by thievery. In PnP it's self-evident: you lose that hand and there's no going back, because the GM says so. Imagine if in MMO a GM (or another player) would come and tell you, you can't use that weapon on your right hand now, because it was cut off as punishment for your theft. Only 0.1% of RP'ers would actually do so. Instead if the game itself made that happen... What choice would you have?

So the RP in online games at best is very artificial. It can never reach the same qualities as in a PnP/Live action game (which is more artificial over to PnP because you'd have to lie to your body, while in PnP you can't lie to your character sheet or GM). That's why I really don't consider mmos and rpg's the same thing. Rather, they have similarities, but are completely different. There was a time in my life, when I was naive enough to believe you could really achieve RPG on a massive scale with computer games. I don't anymore. Though good RP moments can and will come by when you let them to.

PS. The proper way to response to a grand wall of text, is with at least a wall of text

[Emdor]

As a vetern of 17 years of pnp dnd and multiple online games Never winter for one Age of Conan another ... As a comsumate Rp'r Age of conan RP blew chow that game was nothing but a gankfest i am glad i quit playing it ... now after playing Age of conan.... I still play NWN from time to time I also am beta testing a game called Runes of Magic ... not so hot ... very cartoonish and not real pleasing on the eyes a very basic game ... I truely hope to make the best of the RP in Mortal, I hope it will be stellar ... from what i have read here it sounds like you all would very much like to have this be the RP world none of these other so called RP games live up to.

[Mathael]

Originally Posted by catmorbid

PS. The proper way to response to a grand wall of text, is with at least a wall of text

Hehe, indeed. Thank you posting your experiences with PnP roleplaying catmorbid. This area was really something which I initially didn't get grasps with, primarily because I was growing up during the age of CRPG, which made it so much more convenient to meet over the internet than to plan a social gathering.

It's true that the great thing about PnP was the enforceability of the GMs. This is probably the main problem with trying to roleplay on an MMO environment. The design mechanics for the game were not meant for it originally and thus the enforcement needed is minimal at best.

The example you mentioned on rewarding roleplaying is also interesting. When I was playing on a persistent world with hardcore rules (HCR) on Neverwinter Nights, the GMs would often monitor events and reward roleplayers with experience. It certainly helped in promoting roleplaying within these frameworks, but that type of CRPG is very different from MMOs we have today.

A peer evaluation system would be nice if it can work properly. Though given the high amount of players in modern MMOs, the cost of monitoring and enforcement of such would be very high. In addition, players seeking to take advantage of the system by finding loopholes and exploiting it would also be a cause for concern.

If the rewards were artificial or something which would only appeal to the roleplaying crowd, then I can see this system being effective. Somethin like titles, or social clothing that adds no statistical boost whatsoever. Afterall, it is often the roleplayers which are nitpicky about the clothing they wear. I have often seen some neglect all types of armour altogether to act out their barbarism .

Originally Posted by Emdor

As a vetern of 17 years of pnp dnd and multiple online games Never winter for one Age of Conan another ... As a comsumate Rp'r Age of conan RP blew chow that game was nothing but a gankfest i am glad i quit playing it ... now after playing Age of conan.... I still play NWN from time to time I also am beta testing a game called Runes of Magic ... not so hot ... very cartoonish and not real pleasing on the eyes a very basic game ... I truely hope to make the best of the RP in Mortal, I hope it will be stellar ... from what i have read here it sounds like you all would very much like to have this be the RP world none of these other so called RP games live up to.

I found NWN to be the fondest place to roleplay in all the games I have tried. I think because it was modeled after the PnP style which made it so successful. The idea of relinquishing control of not only the building tools but also the power of GMs to players really created something special. I guess Bioware's adoption of the idea "if we build it, they will come" certainly proved effective. Time will also tell whether this same formula can be applied to the MMO scene with this new age in sandbox game design, as well as the radical approach undertaken by Bioware with their own MMO - The Old Republic.

[Emdor]

Well i look forward to RP in this game ... To actually make a name for yourself among the entire community is something special. The gankers ... or PKr's that treat these games like it's mortal combat and run around like children and just kill for the kicks of it will be outcasts and shunned from the community ... I cant wait for this i hope they all get banned.True pvp is not just killing for kicks it's figuring out your place and figuring out who you dont like and who you do.... that to me is the stepping stone for pvp if it happens so be it ... that is why you have a skill(feat) tree . In PNP there were conflicts and of course smetimes pvp but usually it is pretty civil. But this want to kill everything and everyone mentallity some have dont belong and i am hopful that they will be dealt with here.

[catmorbid]

Originally Posted by Emdor

In PNP there were conflicts and of course smetimes pvp but usually it is pretty civil. But this want to kill everything and everyone mentallity some have dont belong and i am hopful that they will be dealt with here.

Why PnP games rarely have player vs. player combat for death is obvious: The stakes are the character's life, and usually the players intend to work together for a common goal. Since they all know each other and there aren't hundreds of other players involved, it's a lot easier as well. I've played on many occasion PvP in PnP, and those situations always make your heart beat like hell - especially when you've grown fond of the character that is at stake.

But really, without severe penalties to player killing, you cannot really root out the kind of pvp bash fest you talked about. When killing has no consequences, it becomes like breathing. Age of Conan went really wrong direction in having open pvp without any gains or consequences. Only in later phase they added something like that ( I quite long before that). So it's no wonder it went how it did. If the gameplay is directed towards a fast-paced action game instead of a roleplaying game, it's no wonder really why the end result doesn't remind of a good roleplaying game.

@Mathael: The problems and exploitations of any peer evaluation/player handed experience system are obviously the reasons why they couldn't be made to work. The point of rewarding roleplaying is that even non-roleplayers would be encouraged to do so - but not to encouraged to find and use exploitations.

Small circles would probably reward each other, but to counter-balance that, there would need to be restrictions or diminishing rewards if the same people only keep rewarding you. Such a reward system should only give best rewards to those who are recognized by a larger crowd. Of course it would lead to an elitist behaviour and people begging for popularity.

But you're right, some sort of minor roleplaying reward instead of major reward might help to some degree, keeping those without any interested in them away from exploiting the system. Still, I honestly believe that if you could make such a system work, it would mean a new era of better roleplaying in mmorpgs.

[Emdor]

Like i said ... from those talking in here that is how they would hope this game goes... RP with a pvp option for combat ... I know i will be RPin my ass off ..I like nothing better than bringing to life the diolect and behavior from those ages (Fantasy Realms)...I so hope for lots of RPing guilds so there is a variety to choose from. TTY all soon

[Traceur]

i don't get the point of a reward system for RP... if i enjoy RP then i am rewarded by... well, enjoying it. now ideally a game would naturally reward you for thinking in the world's terms & put yourself in the situation of your character simply by requiring it to do well... but an actual game mechanical reward? what would be the point?

[Sidian]

I was a GM on a hardcore RP UO shard. We had Experience Points granted only for events or quests lead by the GMs or QMs. Sometimes they took 15 minutes, sometimes chain quests took days and days to complete. They were ofcourse properly rewarded, so you'd receive a single XP after a 15 minute event and a dozen for a chain, week long quest.

The reasons for experience points are very simple. It's a matter of goals and mechanics. If the goal is to have a hardcore RP shard, then you need all your players to RP at all times, so that everyone does it. Since they never knew, if a GM watched, they did it at all times. Now since the mechanics of UO awards grinding as the main way of developing your character there should be some system for players to develop their characters without grinding (grinding on RP shards was BAD )*. Therefore the XP points could be exchanged for stat points, skill points and some additional stuff unavailable by other means (like learning some other race's language). The system had it's flaws, but was generally very succesfull and is still in play on the shard I'm talking about.

The same argument about enjoying RP, so being rewarded by the RP itself was stated during discussion back then. The answer is simple: Why do we have shortcuts like lol or rotfl? Because it's easier and faster. Is it easier to RP or is it easier to play H&S? Roleplay always requires imagination, ideas and quite a lot of hard work on your character. H&S doesn't.

Regards,
Sidian

* I didn't mention, that skill and stat gains are a bit slower there than on official servers. Probably a 1000 times slower. It took about 48 hours of non stop mining to gain 1 str if you had above 80 str.

[Caedryan]

As far as I read I totally agree with you! Awesome work, thank you. I really appreciate it.

As soon as I get home I'm reading everything and hopefully give you a feedback.

Thank you

[Squirtle]

Roleplay is not talking about RL stuff in-game and behaving as if you are really in that world. That's all. Pretty simple.

[Eonwe]

Originally Posted by Squirtle

Roleplay is not talking about RL stuff in-game and behaving as if you are really in that world. That's all. Pretty simple.

I'd rather read the original post than this one, so maybe it isn't quite as simple as you say.

[Heliopios]

This is all pretty much Roleplay 101, and most people who would even bother to visit this forum more than likely know most of the stuff about the etiquette of roleplay. A good read to people who may be interested in roleplay. Shame almost all roleplay will be ruined if there is not an RP-dedicated server.

[Menimra]

Very good posts both Mathael and Traceur.

Myself I've only RPed using PnP... I belive I'm somewhere in between a casual and hardcore RPer.
I'm not so sure if I've been much of a Loreplayer, ever. It all started when I were introduced to a D&D hack'n'slash campaign, not sure why but I got hooked and it lead to many more sessions but I started to grow tired of running around just killing and building a character as powerful as possible.
(And in D&D you can make some nasty stuff picking your flaws and feats.) Well.. After a while we changed DM (GM) and began using another attribute system which made your char much more unique and not the perfect candidate for it's class... Later on this also became almost boring and I was saved by a returning friend whom introduced me to WoD (World of Darkness, vampire RP. MUCH more RPing then D&D, Vampire the Masqurade Bloodlines is built upon this system).
This new system really encurage RPing as it's one of the things that you get awarded xp for. As sessions passed characters died and campaigns started anew I turned more and more towards the RP part. I've played characters completely without the ability to fight, cast magic or other such things and it's amazing. The feeling of running through a good session, conversations where you really are your char. Evolving it's personality, changing, adapting new ways of seeing things..

I'm really hoping I can find a good RP community/guild in MO. A place where I can be my char.. Though, it seems that many here really hate OOC talking, I belive it's accetable but should be marked as such, like in (parentesis) and keept at a minimum.
Last.. I've been a little discouraged by the player community here. I'm not much of a PvPer and most likely will be crafting/social but almost every thread except for in this section is about some part of pvp. Why we shouldn't have a flagging system and so on. Something I find a bit sad... =(
I see why some ppl like it and why existing but as you read you get the feeling you shouldn't trust anyone and never ever go pve with a pickup group.
hehe.. I will probably be told to go and find a nice and cosy PVE MMO for this. Already been there though, just so you know before you spam me with your hatred

[Mantis]

Originally Posted by Eonwe

I'd rather read the original post than this one, so maybe it isn't quite as simple as you say.

Basically he is right. How far you choose to take it doesn't define it. But in the end you are acting as if you are there.

[Menimra]

Originally Posted by Mantis

Basically he is right. How far you choose to take it doesn't define it. But in the end you are acting as if you are there.

One important thing to remember here is metagaming. The bad and wrong kind of RPing. I can agree to some degree but someone about to start RPing should really look into it more then just "behaving as if you are really in that world". Seperating your knowledge from your chars is a very important part which quickly ruins others will to RP with you if your lack it.

[catmorbid]

Originally Posted by Sidian

I was a GM on a hardcore RP UO shard. We had Experience Points granted only for events or quests lead by the GMs... and so on...

Very good post, I think that pointed out why awarding roleplaying with experience points works and is the best way to promote roleplaying.