Red stat loss, Read & Vote

[Henrik Nystrom]

Ok,

I wrote this in a hurry so please ignore my bad English.
It seems like not all features as in this case stat loss from UO pre trammel was wanted in MO. I myself did enjoy spending great pvp time with one of my reds in UO, and I had to take statloss in the count when killed. Sometime I hated to spend ingame time to get my red back on the field. Thou we had some ideas on how to get rid of this time (etherworld) But it seems the majority do want to get rid of stat loss. And we do listen to you guys. I also think it gave me a bigger risk, thrill (adrenaline rush!!) in knowing if I die now it will take some time for me to get back, and that gave an even bigger pvp challenge, now we do take this one away, how do we add a bigger risk then? or dont we need one? Is full loot enough? Don't some ppl just want to show what they are made off?

As stated before this is not yet decided we only have it in the alpha and it came from pre trammel UO time. Was this not what UO had to give that extra rush for the reds you think?

As I said I do want to have that feeling from UO old days, when playing reds or knowing what you did for that red when killing him. It really gave something extra, in playing a red. Without this, it's one step closer to one way of pvping, not being able to choose that extra hardcore moments for you who enjoys it.

I am sure there are many of you from pre trammel UO time, playing ur red and was experience what I describe. I did also play a lot faction wars when it came into UO. It was intense pvping, with a 15min stat loss each time you got killed by a faction enemy. But it was noooot a bonus to the rush for those 15 min, that was just a cooldown to prevent some chaos. It was really the xxx hours of stat loss timer that showed some respect and that extra rush. If it was a ridiculus xxxx hour wait then you probably took the res and had to train back your skills, and you became a very good pvper cause of the penalty. Changing back to your faction char was like stealing candy from a baby on the field Yes stat loss as it is in alpha now is alot more hardcore because it could be hell for a red with this system. But is that not a side we want? If you want to pvp nonstop killing and killing then there is guild wars for you so that wont be a problem. But if you want to take an even harder path and hordcore player experience then there is the way of a murderer, and how you choise to play it? Normal pvping did give a good rush however, facing a red or playing a red allways added something extra.

Hey REDS from UO pre trammel that really enjoyed this little extra, help us out here I want to hear from you as well
Im very interesting in hearing from you as I think it is really important to get this right, let's solve this one!

[Czechmate]

First!

EDIT: nevermind poll got ninja'd in :P

Hmm, if training isn't a huge time sink then the system sounds fine as is.

Though I vote for 24 hour game time murder status. :P

[LightsabeR]

My main concerns are that stat loss encourages PK's to actually go after weaker targets since they are afraid to fight anti-PK's and stronger neutral players due to the high risk. So I think this system would actually be punishing the PK's who want to have a challenge, more than it would punish the griefers.

Secondly I strongly feel that playing as a PK is just another play style and should not be punished in such an artificial way. Yes, becoming a PK should have consequenses and the choise to become one should not be taken lightly. But I think instead of trying to punish the PK's by artificial systems you should try to encourage other players to hunt down the PK's. This would make it more exciting to play as a PK, since you know that everyone is highly motivated to hunt you down and it would also keep the game world a bit more civil by reducing the number of PK's.

I just think it's unfair to punish people who choose a certain play style with a stat loss. Yes, I guess it would get your adrenalin pumping, but it just seems to me that there are better ways to solve this problem. I know what Mats has said about this system being a well tested one ect, but it just doesn't seem right to me.

Edit:
Voted "No stat loss at all, The rush from normal pvp is enough!". Since I feel the players themselves should police the servers.

[Rlsd]

Having played UO from 97-2004 and spending 3 years on 1999 style UO freeshards, I say this with all my mmo experience. Statloss for reds MUST be in MO. UO's statloss was hard hardcore, 50+ murders and you had to take the hit and retrain. As a game mechanic its great, but it can be better for todays age of mmos. As I suggested in the other thread, static statloss is a much more sensible way to handle the issue. Basically if you die as a red you have X hours before you can rez without statloss. The hour range can be adjusted, but I suggest something 7-10 hours long. This way you get one rez perday, if you die. All the statloss ideals stay the same...


I think the ultimate goal is to make the hour range high enough to be a murder deterrent, but not a game deterrent. Not being able to rez or play your character for over 24-48 hours is very steep.

[LightsabeR]

Rlsd, but why should there be an artificial deterrent for murderers? Why not let the anti-PK's handle it? Why not let the people who actually fell victim to the murderer handle it?

[Rlsd]

Theres other game systems to encourge the "victims" and "anti pks" to handle it such as bounty boards. Its not an artifical deterrent for reds, its a style of gameplay that a rather large group of gamers have wanted for several years. Its all about risk vs reward, and the risk must be high for living the murderous lifestyle.

[Necromantic]

I will try it in beta and see how it works and fits.

[Traceur]

Originally Posted by Henrik Nystrom

now we do take this one away, how do we add a bigger risk then? or dont we need one? Is full loot enough? Don't some ppl just want to show what they are made off?

ok, i know we think... very differently henrik, i sometimes attack you on this but it's simply that we think in different... well, thought structures, different ways of reasoning, that end up in different often apposing conclusions. but hear me out here:

if you just gave a chance to the principle of mutual-protection, even though it has never being tried in any game as far as i know and has no proof of concept in MMORPGs (The only genre where it could exist in the first place), you would see amazing results.

let's for a moment assume that the principle does work:
the more people have to loose -> the more they colleborate.
and let's leave all the other topics related to this on the side:
we're talking now just about the justice system.

you give the statloss upon death to everyone, everyone faces the risk, regardless of flagging. this means everyone who pvps, no matter what the circumstances, is facing higher risks when he dies.
BUT, the attacker needs to make the choice to give the victim the statloss, it can not happen by accident - this could be a manu feature, or preferably something in-game like "break the skull" or "hit the corpse's heart". it needs to be a conscious decision.
now because he has lost more upon that death, he has a higher interest revanging his death. he either organizes his friends/guild, or spreads his name around his guild so his attacker will be in the KOS list, or he pays a security providing guild in the area to put him on their KOS list. the red now has not only the risk of statloss, but he also has the risk of continues prosecution from the warth of the blue/victim's statloss.
the flagging system - existing or not existing - becomes irelevent except for guarded NPC cities and as a "helpful hint", and the player justice system prevails.

this means less PvP - yes, but it also means higher quality PvP - the reds/murderers need to be ready to face higher risks, wars need to be fought for a higher gain, and PK-hunters organize in larger groups. everyone has a higher level of the same thrill your talking about.

[Drakus]

Originally Posted by LightsabeR

Edit:
Voted "No stat loss at all, The rush from normal pvp is enough!". Since I feel the players themselves should police the servers.

As discussed in irc, I totally agree with this comment because I would much prefer having the community police and deal with murders on our own terms. It's no fun when the system punishes players when we are quite capable of punishing them ourselves. If our guild wants to kill annoying players and guilds who are troublemakers we run the risk of being punished for our good intentions to preserve a fun gaming experience for others. Although I will try it out first in beta and then make up my mind.

[Czechmate]

Originally Posted by Drakus

As discussed in irc, I totally agree with this comment because I would much prefer having the community police and deal with murders on our own terms. It's no fun when the system punishes players when we are quite capable of punishing them ourselves. If our guild wants to kill annoying players and guilds who are troublemakers we run the risk of being punished for our good intentions to preserve a fun gaming experience for others.

You only run the risk if you kill blue trouble makers though.

[Joszek]

With stat loss, skill training in pvp will become kinda useless.
From the second hand, it'd encourage pkers to abuse it on newbs.

There can't be stat loss + X hour waiting, cause it takes all the fun from pk, the more: all the fun from "participating" in any pvp.
I'd get over 1% of stat loss after killing f.e. 10 players and then spawn immediately. Then after killing another 5 I'd loose 2% after every insta respawn, and so on. So stat loss would go exponentially. But not forcing player to choose from waiting 5 hours or loosing 5% after killing 5peeps; and then eventually waiting 20h after sending to underworld couple players. Well, it's not a thempark where I could leave my avatar in front of city and go sleep till PK state ends, and I can start to PK again to have any profits from it.


Considering pk state means "you are already dead, it's only a matter of time" (no one will be such a badass to take down 10 opponents with 1 swing) how long will I survive with my current equipment. So after dying, and being still PK what should I do ? Fight and block with bare hands and then wait again couple hours ?

The closest poll entry which I'd choose is "It should be more like 12 short terms till you are in SL and it should be like 2 hours each kill"
But static +2 hrs -> 20h max to SL per every kill isn't the way for me.So I'll decide in/after beta, if only all players at once won't choose to be PK in SL ps: I don't know if I understood the topic right.

[LightsabeR]

Originally Posted by Czechmate

You only run the risk if you kill blue trouble makers though.

Which is not wise, because a blue can be just as annoying and cause just as much trouble as a red.

[Rlsd]

IMO, stick with what you know works.
The flagging pvp system works, has worked, excells itself, and is proven over 11 years and running. Instead of theorycrafing and trying to think up something new, the question people should be asking is how can we make UOs pvp statloss system BETTER?

Hopefully the answer is static statloss.

[LightsabeR]

Originally Posted by Rlsd

the question people should be asking is how can we make UOs pvp system BETTER?

But isn't that exactly what we are trying to do? Some of us think that by removing stat loss or maybe making stat loss apply to everyone the PvP system will be better.

[Drakus]

Originally Posted by Czechmate

You only run the risk if you kill blue trouble makers though.

Well if that's the case, I don't think there is a real issue with what I said previously because blue players are innocent by definition and they can't be troublemakers. hehehe

Originally Posted by LightsabeR

Which is not wise, because a blue can be just as annoying and cause just as much trouble as a red.

Then my issue still stands unless there is no way a innocent player can be annoying or interfering with other players other than chat.

[Czechmate]

Originally Posted by LightsabeR

Which is not wise, because a blue can be just as annoying and cause just as much trouble as a red.

What is a blue going to do that you can't /ignore?

[Phi]

voted on choice #8. I have never played UO nor do i know what it means to be red, unless being red means you are an enemy. One thing i do know is that without a sort of penalty PvP can feel more like an FPS, no thrills with quick growing monotony. I'd like to have a heavy risk in pvp, one that prevents re-spawn zerging and also creates a good rush, like im fighting for my life.

[GhettoFish]

I must say that we should wait for Beta to decide this. It depends on a couple of factors. First off is the question how good I am. If I am awesome and never die i want to be able to inflict loads of Stat Loss on my enemies. If I suck I don't want that much Stat Loss. In anyway, I do want some sort of Stat Loss or some kind of Penalty except dying and loosing all of my equipment and resources that I have on me.

On a second note the depth of the game increases with Stat Loss. The thrill of the hunt increases the adrenaline rush if I know that if I die I will have to spend so and so much time regaining my strength, which is more realistic since if I die in real life I would have to go to rehab and relearn a lot of my skills and abilities again.

[LightsabeR]

Originally Posted by Czechmate

What is a blue going to do that you can't /ignore?

Let's see. Train mobs on you. Try to get in the way of your attacks so you flag him. Scout for the enemy guild. Do annoying emotes next to you. I don't know... lots of things...

[Czechmate]

Originally Posted by LightsabeR

Let's see. Train mobs on you. Try to get in the way of your attacks so you flag him. Scout for the enemy guild. Do annoying emotes next to you. I don't know... lots of things...

How would he train mobs on you? Are you AoE farming?

Really what it sounds like to me is you need to hire a hitman.

Red's can be a necesarry evil you know.

[Drakus]

Originally Posted by Czechmate

What is a blue going to do that you can't /ignore?

Originally Posted by LightsabeR

Let's see. Train mobs on you. Try to get in the way of your attacks so you flag him. Scout for the enemy guild. Do annoying emotes next to you. I don't know... lots of things...

My point exactly and there is no way to punish blue annoying players other than killing and teaching them a lesson or two or three or four or five... I think you get my point.

[Rlsd]

Unomat, im going with what I know works. A static statloss timer can accomplish everything a consective statloss timer can. I just answered Henriks question "Hey REDS from UO pre trammel that really enjoyed this little extra, help us out here I want to hear from you as well"

[Cye]

I voted for the levels of statloss, but I disagree with the maximum 20h. If you murder enough people, you should be allowed to perpetuate your statloss timer indefinitely. Aslong as the skills can be regained, let the penalty be truly intimidating.

One additional suggestion:
Give bonuses to successful murderers on rampage. Something like "Frenzy" or "Savage Instincts" that multiplies a murderer's effectiveness (with diminishing returns) after each kill for a short amount of time (IE: 1.2x original damage output for each kill after 10 for a duration of 30 minutes). A guy that just murderered nine people should be so blood drunk he should be annihilating anyone in the nearby area.

With great risk comes great reward.

[Isaac]

Well, I prefer this system after analyzing this kind of hard coded penalty, although I think that 5 hours are a bit harsh. I think 1-2 hours per blue kill would be enough.

If pk's are too afraid to loose their stats, well then do what most pk's propose to players that are aware of dying and loosing their stuff:

Group up and avoid to die.

So long

Isaac

[catmorbid]

GLOBAL STAT LOSS FOR EVERYONE

Please include this on the poll, Henrik. Many people have expressed their interest towards it already, albeit different variations to how to actually do it have been presented.

But there's still one question that remains unanswered, and this is important:

Does 10% stat loss mean STAT - STAT x 0.1? I.e. If my skill is 50, does it become 45 or 40? I would presume the former, but I'm not sure and this is very important, needless to say why.

If it's the former, then there's no issue in having global statloss to everyone, because noobs won't suffer nearly as much as, and the fledgling flag could even remove all stat loss at all, or halve it.

[Kayden]

Originally Posted by Cye

I voted for the levels of statloss, but I disagree with the maximum 20h. If you murder enough people, you should be allowed to perpetuate your statloss timer indefinitely. Aslong as the skills can be regained, let the penalty be truly intimidating.

One additional suggestion:
Give bonuses to successful murderers on rampage. Something like "Frenzy" or "Savage Instincts" that multiplies a murderer's effectiveness (with diminishing returns) after each kill for a short amount of time (IE: 1.2x original damage output for each kill after 10 for a duration of 30 minutes). A guy that just murderered nine people should be so blood drunk he should be annihilating anyone in the nearby area.

With great risk comes great reward.

I second. Keep a system with great rewards as well as great penalties. PK'ers who campaign for a light death penalty are just griefers.

[WonkoZSane]

Originally Posted by LightsabeR

Rlsd, but why should there be an artificial deterrent for murderers? Why not let the anti-PK's handle it? Why not let the people who actually fell victim to the murderer handle it?

Well if you're thrown in prison for a few years and tortured do you really think you'd be 100% when you get out. I'm waiting for beta to decide but it doesn't seem that unrealistic to me. YMMV.

[LightsabeR]

Originally Posted by Kayden

PK'ers who campaign for a light death penalty are just griefers.

But the stat loss system hurts the true PK'ers more than grifers, as I mentioned before, because griefers always look for the weaker opponents so they have a very small chance of dieing. But PK'ers who like a challenge and try to fight people who are equal to their strength will get punished.

[WonkoZSane]

Henrik,

would it be possible that the statloss could increase with the number of hours you have on your timer... say 2% + 0.2%/hour or roughly 2% + 1% / kill with a maximum of 10%? (Note when you get rezzed though and your statloss counter has more than 40 hours on it the statloss counter will still be active, only with 40 less hours on it.) So the penalty reflects the severity of the crime so to speak... your penalty depends on how much your beaten in prison. A casual murderer doesn't have too much to fear then but a hardcore murderer might have to think twice. Just a thought.

[Fortinbras]

Stat loss for everyone who engages in PVP, I say.

Start the stat-loss counter whenever anyone kills another player, even in self-defence, even if they're a legitimate target. I can see the sense in not punishing innocent blues who got ganked and had valuable loot taken even further, but everyone who willingly pvps and/or proves they can handle themselves should be subject to the same risks.

Oh, and five hours is way too long. Half an hour seems like plenty to me, but in any case it shouldn't be longer than the average play session.

[WonkoZSane]

Originally Posted by Fortinbras

Stat loss for everyone who engages in PVP, I say.

Start the stat-loss counter whenever anyone kills another player, even in self-defence, even if they're a legitimate target. I can see the sense in not punishing innocent blues who got ganked and had valuable loot taken even further, but everyone who willingly pvps and/or proves they can handle themselves should be subject to the same risks.

Oh, and five hours is way too long. Half an hour seems like plenty to me, but in any case it shouldn't be longer than the average play session.

The only problem I have with penalizing everyone is that there is a huge advantage of striking first. There are few people I can't kill if I sneak up on them and attack them from behind, which is true for most murderers I assume. I have no problem with saying that if you want the advantage you have to assume the risks... you want the advantages of first strike and full loot be prepared to pay the cost as well. Really there is no way of telling (from what I understand) who's experienced and who isn't... so roll the dice and take your chances. And maybe be prepared to play an alt for a few hours...

[Lachrymose]

here's my problem with it henrik...

first off, it's not even the stat loss that bothers me. i actually even agree it would be fun, but my MAIN issue with it is the fact that it ONLY applies to reds. sure, i do think it sounds exciting to know that if you die, you might lose a decently significant percentage of your stats. however, if you win, what do you get? a little bit of someone's gear? why would i risk 10% of my stats when the person i'm fighting against won't lose anything except for some lousy gear when he dies (i'm not talking about killing newbs, i'm talking about skilled blues)? the reds just put on some gear and go out hunting, and mats explained that the 10% stat loss was to up the risk.. what about those anti-PKs? they don't carry around loads of loot. they take with them no more than a red would, only they have absolutely NOTHING to lose.. a little bit of easily replaceable gear... that's it.

people claim that PKs have nothing to lose for attacking blues, which is completely false.. blues aren't always the helpless red-fearing children that it seems everyone is making them out to be. i've seen blues wipe the floor with reds in bux den, so not all blues are total newbs. furthermore, if you kill one of those newbie blues, he might put a bounty on your head, or send his guild/faction friends after you. there are repercussions involved that aren't hardcoded into the game's mechanics already. you kill newbie blues.. people will come after you. even under the current stat loss system, it's not like i have to worry a whole lot from fighting some newbie blue that's full of loot.. it's not like he'll kill me. the only people that i have to worry about are the skilled blues who are out PK hunting and have nothing to lose as it is... so really all i see this statloss doing is deterring reds from fighting anyone with any skills and making reds choose to go after the newbs they know they won't die fighting against.

yes, i think stat loss deters pvp somewhat. however, it's just like PD, only to a far lesser extent. it reduces the quantity of pvp, while increasing its quality by making death more meaningful, which i think is a good thing. HOWEVER... under the current stat loss system, i don't feel that a PK's death is very meaningful if all he can gain from it is gear. in order to get that meaningful feel for death, i need to know that not only will i lose something significant from death if i fail to succeed in killing him, but my enemy will also lose something more than just some gear if i DO manage to succeed. otherwise, why fight them? i'll just go after the people that are full of loot and are minding their own business instead.. not to mention the fact that those are the guys that probably won't kill me anyway.

there needs to be a way to give reds statloss (i think 10% is still an awful lot, but i don't know how significant it really is), but there also needs to be a way to give their opponents stat loss as well. however, the people that are minding their own business and want nothing to do with pvp (although i wonder why they're playing this game) probably won't like that, so i think there should be a way to get them out of the whole statloss business.. they don't take statloss, but them killing someone also won't give them any statloss. they won't have to fear stat loss, but neither will their enemy. here's the suggestion i came up with: http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/3...html#post63101.

it doesn't even need to be "good" vs. "evil" or anything like that. in fact, i think in a red vs red fight, they should both have to risk losing stats as well, so perhaps it could just be a more general system. i just think that anyone that has the power to kill someone and give them statloss should also be subjected to statloss, and i don't think EVERYONE needs to be subjected to statloss either.. since this would likely increase greifing to an unbearable extent. if two people are fighting, either both of them have stat loss to fear, or neither of them has stat loss to fear. i kind of like fortinbras's suggestion on anyone who pvps, but then i worry that it might discourage some blues from pvping completely..

one other change the the chaos/order system i suggested in the link.. the thing i worry about with such a system is that what happens when an order & a neutral fight against a chaos player? the neutral doesn't risk statloss, but the chaos red has to risk statloss because the order guard is there.. maybe the statloss inflicted upon the chaos guard can be scaled based on how much of the damage he took was caused by the neutral and how much was caused by the order? so if half the damage was caused by the neutral and half by the order, the chaos would only lose 5% (if the normal statloss is 10%).

also, i just wanted to point out.. it seems like the majority of the people that want statloss aren't the reds, but the blues that think that all reds are griefers and all blues have no chance of defending themselves against reds, which is obviously just not true. the stat loss system as it stands is just a punishment for reds.. not even griefers, since not everyone who is red is a griefer (which it seems so many people just don't understand). just look in my sig.. those are just a few of the comments from people that are interested in an ffa pvp, full loot game. it seems the people that want this feature as it is just want an unnecessarily harsh punishment for reds so they don't have to worry about getting attacked or lose their loot, which is kinda silly.. otherwise, why even bother having ffa pvp with fulll looting?

just to sum up:

• red-only stat loss creates an imbalance between reds and skilled blues
• i agree that stat loss will make things more exciting, but only if you know your enemy will also suffer the same loss if you win.. the current stat loss system is like having a PD server where only a specific playstyle is subject to PD (other players can just run reds into the ground, because they have nothing to lose, while reds do)
• the current system i feel promotes going after newbs you know won't be able to kill you and avoiding any tough matches
• players who don't want to risk losing their stats shouldn't be able to cause statloss to anyone else
• if you want reds to have to hesitate before killing a blue newb, stat loss isn't the way (SCS or deva-shared karma could be a better solution for that).. i might hesitate before fighting a skilled blue, but when i see a blue newb full of loot, i probably won't think twice about it if i'm already red since i'm not worried about newbie blues killing me, i'm worried about the anti-PKs.
• get rid of the statloss timer completely. either you lose stats or you don't, but i don't want to fight someone else knowing that i might lose stats, while they left their player logged in overnight so their stat counter is at 0.

EDIT: also, i did not vote because i don't feel any of the options captures my thoughts entirely, but if i was forced to choose one of those, i would say i don't want statloss at all. basically, if it can't be balanced, i don't think it should be in.

and one more thing.. here's some interesting rewards that were used on siege perilous for the good vs. evil system in tandem with the chaos/order statloss system i suggested: http://uo.stratics.com/content/reput...evilgood.shtml. i think something similar to these incentives would be pretty cool. give reds an incentive to go after the "good" blues rather than the neutral newbie blues, and reward blues for choosing to fight for "good" rather than just remaining neutral. i think this is a good way to encourage more meaningful pvp. the "essence" i was talking about is the "lifeforce" described.

you could even make good/evil npc guilds similar to the "class guilds" you already have. basically, you would be a chaos or order guard, but you would get some kind of "class bonus" for joining one or the other. maybe unique spells (no OP spells or anything), or some other kind of special bonus. also, you could get a special title reflecting how much you've served your side, so as an order guard kills more chaos guards, his title would become more prestigious.

[WonkoZSane]

Originally Posted by Lachrymose

red-only stat loss creates an imbalance between reds and skilled blues

*shrugs* Don't do the crime if you don't have the time. Reds will have far more targets and get far more practice then blues on the whole. PvP is a whole different feel... if you're constantly getting practice you too have an unfair advantage. YMMV.

i agree that stat loss will make things more exciting, but only if you know your enemy will also suffer the same loss if you win.. the current stat loss system is like having a PD server where only a specific playstyle is subject to PD (other players can just run reds into the ground, because they have nothing to lose, while reds do)

But there are huge benefits to attacking first from stealth... I mean most PKers aren't standing in the middle of the road saying 'none shall pass'. They are waiting in shadows ready to sneak up on you. The advantages of reds are huge if that's all you like doing.

the current system i feel promotes going after newbs you know won't be able to kill you and avoiding any tough matches

Can't see that feeling particularly rewarding but I don't think you can tell in MO whether someone is new or not. A red could easily be a noob and a blue can be a PvP god. There's no way to tell or at least ways to hide it if you want. (At least that was my understanding.)

players who don't want to risk losing their stats shouldn't be able to cause statloss to anyone else

Listen there's lots of ways to engage in PvP in MO without resorting to killing everyone who happens to pass by. Most people who I talk to find it annoying as hell getting killed at random by someone who gets off offing people. If you get a reward from just enjoying it you should also face a potential realistic penalty from it.
YMMV.

if you want reds to have to hesitate before killing a blue newb, stat loss isn't the way (SCS or deva-shared karma could be a better solution for that).. i might hesitate before fighting a skilled blue, but when i see a blue newb full of loot, i probably won't think twice about it if i'm already red since i'm not worried about newbie blues killing me, i'm worried about the anti-PKs.

Then kill him.

get rid of the statloss timer completely. either you lose stats or you don't, but i don't want to fight someone else knowing that i might lose stats, while they left their player logged in overnight so their stat counter is at 0.

A red leaving there PC logged on all night in a FFA PvP world. I really wouldn't mind that at all...

[Archimagus]

Originally Posted by LightsabeR

Rlsd, but why should there be an artificial deterrent for murderers? Why not let the anti-PK's handle it? Why not let the people who actually fell victim to the murderer handle it?

Having the stat loss for the PK's is exactly the mechanism that lets the anti-PK's handle the situation. As a PK you don't lose stats just for PKing, you lose stats when you try and res if you have a time left on your stat loss timer. If you are a griefer and there is no stat loss (or any other severe penalty) for dying. What do you care if an anti PK kills you? Just re-spawn, gank some lowbie for some cheep gear and go about your killing ways.

If you want to PVP and not have to worry about stat loss then get into a guild that is at war with another guild. Or go around killing reds or grays. If you want to kill blues then I say deal with your penalty when you die.

[LightsabeR]

Originally Posted by Archimagus

If you want to PVP and not have to worry about stat loss then get into a guild that is at war with another guild. Or go around killing reds or grays. If you want to kill blues then I say deal with your penalty when you die.

Why is it hard to understand? I have nothing against stat loss, I'd even support it, but only if it effected everyone. PK'ing is a play style just like any other. PK's should not suffer a penalty that nobody else is effected by.

And people are still confusing PK's with players who grief and gank lowbies everyday, because they can't handle more experienced opponents. Ture PK's like a challenge and try to go after more difficult targets. With a stat loss system you punish the hardcore PK's a lot more than you punish griefers.

[Resin]

I voted for solve X in etherworld. What can I say, I'm a sucker for all things Etherworld.

[Archimagus]

@LightsabeR: You are correct, PK'ing is a valid style of play. But you are wrong in the statement "PK'ing is a play style just like any other." It is the "just like any other" part that you are wrong about. The difference is that PK'ing is a crime, and stat loss is the punishment. Just like in RL, you can kill someone, but you have to pay the price. That is why they are implementing different penalties for PK'rs and non PK'rs .

[Lachrymose]

Originally Posted by WonkoZSane

*shrugs* Don't do the crime if you don't have the time. Reds will have far more targets and get far more practice then blues on the whole. PvP is a whole different feel... if you're constantly getting practice you too have an unfair advantage. YMMV.

you make it sound like all reds are gods and should never be killed because they get so much practice. reds have more targets, but they will also have many more enemies, which will balance that out. even if reds are better, they will be outnumbered in terms of people that want them dead. either way, reds won't be unstoppable.. reds WILL die. especially if they pvp more than blues.. the more you fight, the more chances you have to die, and if you get in 20 fights a day, you WILL die at least once unless you're just going after newb miners.

Originally Posted by WonkoZSane

Can't see that feeling particularly rewarding but I don't think you can tell in MO whether someone is new or not. A red could easily be a noob and a blue can be a PvP god. There's no way to tell or at least ways to hide it if you want. (At least that was my understanding.)

i don't see it as being rewarding at all either, and personally i hate PKs that go after newb miners or the crafters out collecting resources. but as i said, this statloss system really does nothing to protect them, and instead it encourages reds to go after these people instead of the skilled ones. and trust me... if MO is anything like UO, you will definitely be able to tell pretty well who's skilled and who's a total newb.

again henrik.. notice that your purpose for having the statloss is to make pvp more exciting, yet the majority of the people that seem to want it are the ones that think it's meant to act as a punishment for PKs, which as mats explained is not the case.. it seems the wrong group of people is liking it for the totally wrong reasons.

[Saviour]

Originally Posted by Cye

One additional suggestion:
Give bonuses to successful murderers on rampage. Something like "Frenzy" or "Savage Instincts" that multiplies a murderer's effectiveness (with diminishing returns) after each kill for a short amount of time (IE: 1.2x original damage output for each kill after 10 for a duration of 30 minutes). A guy that just murderered nine people should be so blood drunk he should be annihilating anyone in the nearby area.

With great risk comes great reward.

This would be the only valid option in my opinion, firstly I think cause it "softens" the effects of stat loss, secondly there would be a chance it would "encourage" pvping since you wouldn't only think about not dying but also getting to kill more people and getting stronger with doing so.

On another note I understand both sides, the ones saying statloss should be in (there is a small similarity with L2s flagging system, where you when you killed someone, gained karma and if you died while you were red you could drop an item, that was probably the thrill Henrik mentions from UO since I remember being afraid for my hard crafted items when I was red in L2 and thus creating an "adrenaline rush" while being red trying to stay alive)
Though if statloss would be implented I don't understand why it would be a statloss timer of 5h, tbh 1-2h would be more then enough and would provide a "necessary thrill".

On the other side you have the ones saying statloss is a bad thing, discourages pking and is overall a bad thing for pkers since only they suffer from it then again they chose to pk innocent players themselves still I'd rather have a player made "law" that outcasts pks or something like that.
I voted for the beta testing
I mean talking about something in theory is one thing actually playing it and testing is something completely different.

[LightsabeR]

Originally Posted by Archimagus

@LightsabeR: You are correct, PK'ing is a valid style of play. But you are wrong in the statement "PK'ing is a play style just like any other." It is the "just like any other" part that you are wrong about. The difference is that PK'ing is a crime, and stat loss is the punishment. Just like in RL, you can kill someone, but you have to pay the price. That is why they are implementing different penalties for PK'rs and non PK'rs .

But see the thing is PK's already get punished for their acts by other players. So that takes care of the punishment for a crime part of your argument. It should be in the hands of the law abiding inhabitants of the MO world to administer the punishment. And if they lack the will to do so then it's their own fault if PK's run rampant.

Originally Posted by Lachrymose

again henrik.. notice that your purpose for having the statloss is to make pvp more exciting, yet the majority of the people that seem to want it are the ones that think it's meant to act as a punishment for PKs, which as mats explained is not the case.. it seems the wrong group of people is liking it for the totally wrong reasons.

Couldn't agree more.