RP and non-RP dialects

[Lachrymose]

since fella let the cat out of the bag, and we now know there won't be any RP servers in MO, i'd like to hear some ideas of ways with which the RPers and the non-RPers can both be satisfied on the same server.

here's my solution:

to solve the problem of OOC chatter that RPers have, i propose that players should be allowed to designate themselves as a non-RPer or an RPer when they create their character. each language (sardish, mirii, etc) will have 2 dialects, a non-RP one and an RP one. if you're an RPer, you won't be able to understand the dialects of the non-RPers and instead you'll see jibberish. if you're a non-RPer, you won't be able to understand RP dialect. it'd basically be an automatic /ignore feature that ignores non-RPers by default, but it is a little more "realistic" since there is an explanation for why you can't understand them, and you won't have to sort out the RPers from the non-RPers yourself.

now, if for some reason you DO want to understand a non-RPer, there can be some magic based devices that allow you to translate what they are saying. this way, if you group up with a non-RPer or want to trade with a non-RPer, you can use the device to allow the two of you to communicate.

as far as naming goes.. non-RPers can be assigned a randomly "RP safe" name that will only be displayed to RPers. if the RPers want to see the non-RPers real name, there should be some way to allow them to do so. obviously there will be some RP names that will overlap since there are only so many randomly generated names.. but this is totally realistic, since it's very realistic that people have the same names.

finally, if an RPer goes OOC or has a "non-RP appropriate" name, they will suffer whatever consequences would have been administered had it been on an RP server.

EDIT: on second thought.. i don't see any reason for non-RPers to not be able to understand RPers, since i don't see why any non-RPers wouldn't want to listen to RPers. another option would be to have a "neutral" status that allows you to communicate with RPers and non-RPers, but you would have to be held to the RP rules.

oh.. and please don't argue for or against RP servers, since there is already a thread about that, and i think we all know both sides of the argument pretty well if you read that thread.

[Archimagus]

Can't happen. . . don't even try

[Joszek]

I wonder what would be the use of having 2 bunch of guys, which cannot communicate with each other. If I talk jibberish IT which normal people can't understand (TTL, ssh, wp2, 64bits ... wtf is this guy talking about?) I have to use ordinary language which they understand (mostly explaining wtf is going on). I'm not a truly RPer as I don't use all terms associated with a RP title. But am I a worse RPer if I do my best to suit the world lore with everything I can, like: apropriate name, clothes suit the way of my play style, things I do, and those I won't do and many others considered as RPing.

Guess what would do somebody not understanding wtf is talking the guy opposite ?

hope I stayed ontopic

ps. I've read somewhere a nice sentence: true PK'ers are one of the best roleplayers in mmorpg games

[LightsabeR]

Glad you finally took the time to make this thread Lachry.

As I've said in the other thread, I definitely support the idea. As we know now it's not very likely there will be RP servers, so I seriously feel that it's in the interest of both RP'ers and non-RP'ers to find a way we can all play on the same server.

Archi, why do you say that we shouldn't try to work out a solution? Why do you think it can't work? I'm sorry, but I've come to expect much better posts from you. *waves finger*


As for the system itself, I think it would be a perfect way to integrate the two communities together on a single server. I really don't have much to add to what Lacrhry said, I just look forward to people finding loopholes in that system so we can try and come up with ways to improve it.

[Lachrymose]

Originally Posted by Joszek

I wonder what would be the use of having 2 bunch of guys, which cannot communicate with each other.

if there were separate non-RP and RP servers, they wouldn't be able to talk to each other anyway. the point is that RPers don't want to hear non-RPers for the most part, and like i mentioned.. if they WANT to talk to one of them, they can do so with the use of some special item.

also, if you're an RPer, but you don't mind listening to non-RPers, you can always select non-RP when you create your character.

[Resin]

First off I think this is the best solution going right now.

However, I have edits to propose:

The magic item to understand other dialects, it doesn't sit well with me.
I would prefer to base it on however other languages are learned, is this information known? I assumed it was kind of like a skill you could put points into.

So starting out you would select your native language, you can only choose one. But then you can as many as you want. You may then choose to speak in a language and languages you understand will be automaticly translated. This will be very helpfull for folks like me, who want to RP sometimes but not necessarily always - although I guess you could say just go make another character you fake non-rper.

But consider this, a group of non-rpers and rpers meet. let's say these are all blues at the moment. Not understanding each other they could talk about getting ready to attack privately with each other while just standing there emoting a friendly wave. OK not really immersion breaking but wouldn't this be more fun if one of your team RPed a translator? And then they could give the heads up that these guys aren't as friendly as they pretend to be? IDK, I just don't like magic trinkets, might as well make it a small fish you stick in your ear (NOT a real suggestion).

Oh it would be nice to have a clear fast and dirty definition of OOC and Non-RP, something clear that wouldn't include just bad RP. My question would be using the broadest definition for the RP channel would mention of other properties i.e. "I'm a Cimmerian!" "I am the decendant of Legolas!" be offenses - also would we have OOC whispers - things like "I know your trying, but RPing a Cimmerian is not considered MO RP, I wont report if you drop that schtick"

Finally what are the reprecussions - sorry if you already said - my suggestion would be no bans - just no longer allowed to speak in RP. I think there should be a one warning policy and If you want to RP after banned from channel you can always RP a mute whose tounge was cut out for speaking profanities, you can speak in Rp channel but everything comes out like "Hu, Ie a au t gre grasu o eo as!"

Oh and I think a general ban on leetspeak would be a good second choice to a more complex system. Perhaps disable numbers all together, let them type the words.

[Lachrymose]

i'm not sure how languages are learned, but i'm guessing they are learning skills. i think learning skills require you to spend time reading a book or something, which will make them go up over time. it sounds to me like you actually don't have to be "reading" a book though.. rather, you select a learning skill and it gradually goes up over time, even if you're swordfighting at the time. ofc i could be wrong, but here's what it says on the MO site:

A Learning Skill is passively trained by “reading a book� or “studying it mentally�. This takes time, and the more difficult the skill, the more time it takes. You can only train one Learning Skill at a time, but during that time you can of course train any number of Action Skills as their training is dependent on your actions in the game. Although most Learning Skills are passively trained, some of them will also benefit from certain “actions� in the game, i.e. the Learning Skill “Zoology� might increase each time you discover a new creature. (In this case, the skill don’t have to be the one “currently studied� to increase.)

the idea of RP translators would be a nice idea. the edit i made in the OP mentions possibly having a "neutral" selection that would allow for players to act as a translator between non-RPers and RPers.

the problem with allowing RP players to learn non-RP dialects is that they could no longer filter who to understand and who not to. i suppose they could just have a toggle to turn their understanding of the language on and off, but this sounds like it would be pretty immersion breaking, but i'm not an RPer so i don't know. the reason i suggested a magic item is because it seems more "explainable" than simply toggling on and off, but since it's a game i suppose that would probably be a better idea (unless RPers have a problem with this b/c it isn't realistic).

also, i have no idea what the penalties would be... basically, if you designate yourself as an RP character, you'll be treated as if you were on an RP only server. not sure what that entails, as i've never played on an RP server.

[Archimagus]

Originally Posted by Resin

Oh and I think a general ban on leetspeak would be a good second choice to a more complex system.

Best Post Ever. +1

[Elfvis]

I am kinda dissappointed with the choice to have RP servers, but I guess the Dev's knkow best.

For me as an RP'er I do not need a different language to feel more emmersed in RP. Here is a list of things I do and do not want though.

1. I would like a chat channel that is available to all players like a /ooc or a /general that applies just for Rp'ers. While this channel may be set up for RP'ers it is for everyones use but rules imply to keep people out of it who want to be dicks (moderated, highly unlikely).

2. I do not want RP to be a different language, I do not want to feel l337 over my peers because I am choosing to be RP. I do not want to learn a new language or have my words be not understood by non rp'ers.

Ideas I am on the fence about :

1. A flagging system for RP'ers meaning there is a UI control that I would turn on like if I was looking for a group in game, but here I could see other rp'ers.

As I think of more I will add more, but off the top this is what I can think of.

[Necromantic]

Seperating people only makes things worse, and think about it:
There is no World Chat anyways.
So what's the points?

The only people that could annoy you will be people around you. And if that bothers you, why don't you just do something against it or just ignore it?
Like the chat of local people around you is the only thing that will be able to annoy you. What about people jumping around you guys while you are happily rping? ;P

It will only create a multi "classes" system. Which will make those hate each other even more.

RPing is not different from other gameplay anyways, the only difference is that some may play along with what you do and others won't.
But RP doesn't force you to act in any specific patterns in the first place.

We don't need RP candy, we need "jerk" repellent.

[Archimagus]

HAHAHA Jerk repellent. Good One.

[Resin]

Jerk repellant? - you mean like sand in the lotion?
It is a sandbox game afterall.

Actually you make a good point in IMO.
FFA PVP + No Global Chat = RP friendly world
Sandbox features will support RP naturally.

[Namonaki]

Originally Posted by Resin

FFA PVP + No Global Chat = RP friendly world
Sandbox features will support RP naturally.

Agreed.

[Resin]

Even without RP -Non-Rp dialects, Language differences will actually help matters as well.
Figure a group of Rpers who all choose to RP the same race and kill other races. The only people they need to deel with then are other non-rps of the same race as them.

[Elfvis]

Originally Posted by Resin

Even without RP -Non-Rp dialects, Language differences will actually help matters as well.
Figure a group of Rpers who all choose to RP the same race and kill other races. The only people they need to deel with then are other non-rps of the same race as them.

This is true and like posted above the more "separation" of the two groups the more douchie people become about the situation.

Also we have to remember that this is going to be one of the first games people played where they are not wasting there time leveling. Maybe because of this "lack of content" they may be more inclined to add content by rping a little bit. Just a thought.

[kelthazan]

Wait... no rps-server? Well there gos my hopes and dreams.....Crushing blow me lads....crushing blow.

[Fortinbras]

If they're not going to have RP servers then why would have a far more complicated and not very immersive mechanic to perpetuate the tribalism that comes with RP servers? This proposal would split the player-base in half, which seems to be exactly what the devs want to avoid. It's kind of a central principle of Mortal that there's room for all different playstyles in the same environment. You may not like to PVP, but PVP will find you. You may not want to roleplay but you shouldn't be able just to block out roleplayers.

Besides, we're all roleplayers if we're playing a roleplaying game, it's just a matter of degree. I don't want to have to flag myself a roleplayer if I ever want to talk in character, and then be subject to someone else's definition of what 'proper RP' is.

[Elfvis]

Originally Posted by Fortinbras

Besides, we're all roleplayers if we're playing a roleplaying game, it's just a matter of degree. I don't want to have to flag myself a roleplayer if I ever want to talk in character, and then be subject to someone else's definition of what 'proper RP' is.

Very true and well said. The "Jerk's" are RP'ers that are still in the closet.

[LightsabeR]

Originally Posted by Fortinbras

If they're not going to have RP servers then why would have a far more complicated and not very immersive mechanic to perpetuate the tribalism that comes with RP servers? This proposal would split the player-base in half, which seems to be exactly what the devs want to avoid. It's kind of a central principle of Mortal that there's room for all different playstyles in the same environment. You may not like to PVP, but PVP will find you. You may not want to roleplay but you shouldn't be able just to block out roleplayers.

Besides, we're all roleplayers if we're playing a roleplaying game, it's just a matter of degree. I don't want to have to flag myself a roleplayer if I ever want to talk in character, and then be subject to someone else's definition of what 'proper RP' is.

Well I guess I agree with this. But the goal of this thread is to find a way of appeasing the RPers who complain that simply having the freedom to play the game any way they like is not enough for them.

[Namonaki]

I will certainly roleplay nearly all of my characters (traditionally I have very few mages and crafters, and they do not roleplay, but all of my dexxers, thieves, anything else do). There is no need for any special treatment for roleplayers - as it has been said a sandbox MMO of this kind does not need any special seperations or restrictions. It will allow people to roleplay to the fullest, and sometimes even encourages a higher degree of imagination.

[Lachrymose]

Originally Posted by Fortinbras

This proposal would split the player-base in half, which seems to be exactly what the devs want to avoid. It's kind of a central principle of Mortal that there's room for all different playstyles in the same environment.

well, it prevents them from talking to one another (unless they want to), but you can still interact with one another perfectly well, and again, if you DO want to communicate, you can. you wouldn't be split at all other than the fact that you could block out the leet speak you RPers have made clear you don't want to hear.

an RP server on the other hand TOTALLY splits up the community, which is my main concern. i think this system would at least be a better alternative than two completely separate servers with no communication OR interaction whatsoever.

but either way, i could care less.. i'd rather the devs not waste their time trying to make RPers happy if most of them can live with not having an RP server. although the RP server thread gave me the impressions quite a few people wouldn't even play MO if there was no way for them to RP "in peace."

necro.. how exactly do you propose we come up with this "jerk repellant?" by banning people for using leet speak..?

[LightsabeR]

Originally Posted by Lachrymose

necro.. how exactly do you propose we come up with this "jerk repellant?" by banning people for using leet speak..?

By using the Jerk'o'meter of course. Duh!

[Fortinbras]

Originally Posted by Lachrymose

i'd rather the devs not waste their time trying to make RPers happy if most of them can live with not having an RP server.

Indeed, and a game like Mortal presents such powerful attractions to the roleplayer (lack of artificial restrictions + well-written background) that I think most doubters will come around.

I admit I'm just plain biased against RP servers though. They're ghettos where creativity goes to die, only fit for games where roleplaying means sitting in the tavern talking faux-elizabethan English or cybersexing in the bushes outside.

[Lachrymose]

Originally Posted by Fortinbras

They're ghettos where ... roleplaying means ... cybersexing in the bushes outside.

ok, on second thought i change my mind. there should DEFINITELY be RP servers.

[Strife40k]

I am not in favor of separate dialects, unless it is skill based.

[Fortinbras]

Originally Posted by Lachrymose

ok, on second thought i change my mind. there should DEFINITELY be RP servers.

Who here can say they've never rolled up a blond paladin twink and gone cruising the RP servers?

...

I mean, uh, forget I said anything.

[Strife40k]

To the OP:

You are proposing to divide the community.
To be frank, I don't think this is a good idea.

The best solution would be a natural one. Where, the rpers's help each other, and the non-rper's will learn to 'play the game' and will then gain the benefits... and eventually learn to enjoy rping.

[Lachrymose]

Originally Posted by Strife40k

To the OP:

You are proposing to divide the community.
To be frank, I don't think this is a good idea.

The best solution would be a natural one. Where, the rpers's help each other, and the non-rper's will learn to 'play the game' and will then gain the benefits... and eventually learn to enjoy rping.

this was an alternative to having an RP server, which would divide the community much greater.

i can guarantee you, i won't change how i act to make RPers happy, and i'm not the only one who isn't going to filter what they say just to keep the RPers at bay. the problem is that you have hardcore RPers who think saying "lol" is ooc, but asking non-RPers to conform to RP standards would just be insane.

[Czechmate]

Originally Posted by Lachrymose

if you're an RPer, you won't be able to understand the dialects of the non-RPers and instead you'll see jibberish

I thought RPer's and non-RPer's already considered each other's languages as jibberish.

[kelthazan]

How about a RP tag that makes it so only people with the tag can see & hear each other. But it doesnt apply to auctions or people allready on your friends list or some thing. IT will work for every one! People who want to see and hear every one dont put the tag on ones who dont want to see rpers or pvpers put the tag on. Problem solved.

[Lialith]

Nice idea Lachry, but somehow i just dont like the idea of splitting people up syntheticly.

Some time ago i postet my opinion about my hopes of roleplay in MO and the quintessence was:

Originally Posted by Lialith

Even if there will only be one big server (i do think thats great by the way!) and breaking RP-Groundrules will not have any consequences, even then i beleave that the player sooner or later will create there own RP community. After all its a Sandbox Game. So whats keeping us from just build our own "RP-Town" where OOC-Player are not tolerated?

So i stay with that opinion.
I prefere one big server, because being able to play with people from all over the world is very importent to me. Thats something that Guild Wars tought me...
But im also found of high-quality-roleplay, and I beleave that people who dont know what that is in the first place can learn from watching others doing it and becoming found of it as well.
So in the end what I would love to see in MO is one big (simulated) Server where people from all over the world can jointly play, and where "hardcore RP" people start to literally build their own town, where they enforce their own rules and where outsiders can visit to learn and in the long run maybe also join that RP-community...

[catmorbid]

If there is a one server type only, then there's no need to try and divide the community any further. Though the different dialects bit could be used to some degree achieve a more subtle way for RPers to ignore non-RPers. Not in a harsh way as lachry suggested, but instead why not have two dialects for every language automatically, so that you can decide if you want to hear what the others say or not.

This way, minding your own RP business in your own RP mindset wouldn't be shattered by the occasional "OMGLOLZ! did u see dat lolz 1337!!! I pwned dat n00b omgomg!!! his hed went off!!!11". However, you could change the dialect at any time, and decide if you want to understand the other or not. The ignored dialect would show as "speaking in ruba-dialect", where "ruba" stands for the imaginary other dialect. This way it'd be tied to lore as well.

This would be a semi-artificial approach that wouldn't however break the gameplay in anyway, as you could decide to understand both dialects at any time. You would have to choose however which dialect you'll be speaking...

But I don't know if any of this is even necessary. Time will tell.

[Reverend Mundane]

One idea to help people, whose eyes bleed when they see leetspeak, abbreviations and smilies on their screens, is having an extensive chat filter in the game client. It would 'translate' most of this shady stuff into properly punctuated sentences and decent emotes.

What John types on his keyboard:
wru guiz?+
lol
:)

What everyone else close to John sees:
John says: Where are you guys?
John laughs.
John smiles.



SWG had bit of this, but they really didn't go that far with it. Anyways, it would be pretty effortless to implement on basic levels at least (I'd imagine).

[Lialith]

Originally Posted by Reverend Mundane

One idea to help people, whose eyes bleed when they see leetspeak, abbreviations and smilies on their screens, is having an extensive chat filter in the game client. It would 'translate' most of this shady stuff into properly punctuated sentences and decent emotes.

What John types on his keyboard:
wru guiz?+
lol


What everyone else close to John sees:
John says: Where are you guys?
John laughs.
John smiles.



SWG had bit of this, but they really didn't go that far with it. Anyways, it would be pretty effortless to implement on basic levels at least (I'd imagine).

for this to work properly you would need a high quality database of all that shitty slang...
hm... thats worth a project... but after all... look what bublefish does with our language... i doubt such a mechanism could ever be perfect...

[Reverend Mundane]

Originally Posted by Lialith

for this to work properly you would need a high quality database of all that shitty slang...
hm... thats worth a project... but after all... look what bublefish does with our language... i doubt such a mechanism could ever be perfect...

It wouldn't need to be perfect. Handling some basic expressions would probably remove majority of this 'unwanted' dialect. I might be a naive fool, but I think most of the people who use this kind of language don't use it just to piss off others, but because it's quick and convenient to use.

[Joszek]

Originally Posted by Lialith

for this to work properly you would need a high quality database of all that shitty slang...
hm... thats worth a project... but after all... look what bublefish does with our language... i doubt such a mechanism could ever be perfect...

This is a GM's job. They take salary for actually doing something
Not a bad idea when it goes about l33t string changing, of course if it is done serverside.
From the other hand I wouldn't want to see well known shortcuts being filtered (like juicy wtf) ;D

But filtering content not to show obscene language won't be appreciated in a game aimed for mature people.


Devs could say something about their ideas, concepts, especially things already implemented and working.
Almost year of talking, and actually still no interesting info about game mechanics :\

[Necromantic]

Originally Posted by Lachrymose

necro.. how exactly do you propose we come up with this "jerk repellant?" by banning people for using leet speak..?

My point there was, don't think about useless features for RPers to hide, think about how to get a mature community and how to get the "jerks" silent.

So don't ask me.

Originally Posted by Reverend Mundane

What John types on his keyboard:
wru guiz?+
lol


What everyone else close to John sees:
John says: Where are you guys?
John laughs.
John smiles.

I liked the macro system in UO. I had some emote shortcuts, like when I press strg + g my character emoted that he is grinning and stuff like that.
When MO has a macro system similar to UO we don't need an extra feature for it, the tools are already there.

And seriously I don't want to see emotes of people laughing everytime they are typing lol, rofl, omg or whatever.
Because look how overused they are at times, you would be spamed with emotes and getting more annoyed from it than you would from the abbreviations.

[Reverend Mundane]

Originally Posted by Necromantic

I liked the macro system in UO. I had some emote shortcuts, like when I press strg + g my character emoted that he is grinning and stuff like that.
When MO has a macro system similar to UO we don't need an extra feature for it, the tools are already there.

Problem with relying only on that kind of macro system is that it requires additional effort from the players and would thus be used only by devoted roleplayers.

Originally Posted by Necromantic

And seriously I don't want to see emotes of people laughing everytime they are typing lol, rofl, omg or whatever.
Because look how overused they are at times, you would be spamed with emotes and getting more annoyed from it than you would from the abbreviations.

Yeah, I can kind of see the point, but... isn't that more of problem with general spamming than problem with leetspeak and abbreviations?

[Reverend Mundane]

Originally Posted by Elfvis

The "Jerk's" are RP'ers that are still in the closet.

This is one reason I'm against all kind of useless artificial segregation. Whether it's by separate servers or specific RP/non-RP languages or whatever. I say we need 'jerk' neutralizers, not repellents! (Nice term anyways, Necromantic) Keep them jerks close by and as part of the community so they can learn to understand and maybe "come out of the closet" one day, but until then suppress their disruptive impulses as well as you can.

:flowerchild:

[Mathael]

Originally Posted by Fortinbras

I admit I'm just plain biased against RP servers though. They're ghettos where creativity goes to die, only fit for games where roleplaying means sitting in the tavern talking faux-elizabethan English or cybersexing in the bushes outside.

Haha, so true. This was basically what went on with my old Age of Conan guild every Tuesday night on a weekly basis. You haven't experienced RP until you've seen players engaging in ERP :P.


While Lachrymose does propose a good alternative way in which the separate communities can share a common server, I think that it will still divide up the community. The only difference between this and the separate servers solution, is that this one will occur within the same game world, which to a point is good since it allows for players to freely reallocate themselves without having to transfer completely.

The only RP experience I have had on a single world server was in EVE Online. While it was quite limiting to say the least, I still think it was a good experience gained. The difference between EVE and most other MMOs however is the sheer size of the world. There are literally thousands of systems to explore, and each little community can carve out their own paradises within. For Mortal Online however, I do not know how big the world will be. But if it is not large enough, then we will undoubtedly see a clash between the RPers and the non-RPers from day one.

The language idea is great since it gives players an option and to also not break their immersion (from the RPers perspective). Even if division of the community arises, it won't be a huge deal since it is a single world. Those who have chosen not to RP from the outset can alter their language knowledge in order to join in with the RP community later on. Drastic measures such as transferring characters, or having to start over won't be the issue with this proposal.

Also, since players will also have the ability to shape the world through choices and decisions within, more appreciation of the RP community will surely be evident even by those with no intentions of RPing. Sure you can have non-RP structured scenarios through simply conquering territories or racking up your kill count, but the sole ability to shape the world, by both sides of the fence, will allow for greater convergence of both communities, even if they do not directly interact with each other.

For EVE Online, while territory disputes, empire forging and alliances provided an avenue for sandbox gameplay, altering of the actual world itself outside of these zones did little to boost the Roleplay. For MO however, the shifting landscape and effects on the world environment should allow for the RP and the non-RP community to find an even ground. And eventhough the language barriers proposed in this thread may separate the community, remember than the division will not be permanent. Players will still get a choice on whether they wish to understand non-RPers or not.

As I have also steadfastly professed in RP server thread, it also falls on whether the non-RPing community is accepting of the RPers or not. Oftentimes, they are not, but given the sandbox nature which MO is based upon, I am sure greater appreciation will be seen. Alas, only time will tell.