Forsaken Disclosure and Agreement of Neutrality

[Thaeric]

We welcome any other guild that wishes to solidify their neutrality with us to post their signature here in .png format. If you have any questions or concerns about this document, you may contact me directly at ThaericForlorn@gmail.com


For those guilds that are still working on final approval of this agreement, again, feel free to contact me if you have any further questions or concerns. I just could not postpone posting this any longer. The document is not closed to you though, and you are welcome to take as long as required.

Thank you to all guilds who have already agreed to this document. We look forward to a long, peaceful, and fun relationship. We hope to see you all at our events in the future and look forward to trading with you regarding any and all needs your guild may have.

Our guild law section, referred to in the above document,
http://forsaken.clangroups.com/Guild.aspx?GuildID=345154&ForumID=1635896&TabID=28 89647&Replies=0&TopicID=9093271
See section G

[LightsabeR]

You should probably add the link that leads to your guilds law section somewhere, since one can't copy/paste it from the picture.

[Red Jack]

so are you like the swiss

[Thaeric]

Originally Posted by LightsabeR

You should probably add the link that leads to your guilds law section somewhere, since one can't copy/paste it from the picture.

thanks for pointing that out, I forgot

[Thaeric]

I have had a few comments and concerns from some already about this being an alliance.

It is NOT any sort of alliance. I assure you that if it were CIR/prom and AI would have never agreed to sign it together. lol

[ohello123]

[kio1992]

Sorry, i did'nt have any ink..

[Bevo]

LMAO Kio

I had to go and make my own like yours!

[Nidhogg]

/signed

On behalf of Prometheus Alliance. The signature on the document is already there but Ill sign here agian so there are no misunderstandings.

Thaeric, Prometheus Alliance contains CIR so the separate mention in the OP wasnt needed. But no problem

[Thaeric]

Originally Posted by Nidhogg

/signed
Thaeric, Prometheus Alliance contains CIR so the separate mention in the OP wasnt needed. But no problem

With the constant discussions that apparently require clarification about your alliance, I felt it was prudent to make sure everyone was aware that you were in fact signing for both cir and the prom alliance.
If all of this were only for me, I wouldn't need the document... the idea is so that everyone else gets the true message.

thank you again for your support.

[kio1992]

Originally Posted by Thaeric

With the constant discussions that apparently require clarification about your alliance, I felt it was prudent to make sure everyone was aware that you were in fact signing for both cir and the prom alliance.
If all of this were only for me, I wouldn't need the document... the idea is so that everyone else gets the true message.

thank you again for your support.

so are me and Bevo in?

[Thaeric]

Originally Posted by kio1992

so are me and Bevo in?

Individuals don't need to sign the agreement. Neutral/friendly individuals are always welcome to visit us for trade or RP or join in on our hosted events.

[Alyzar]

I find it somewhat peculiar that you have always claimed neutrality, and then in PMs you talk about how you think that AI has sent spies to your guild.

Do you still believe that AI has sent spies into your guild? I'm not entirely sure why you spread rumors about them while being under the guise of neutrality.

http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/t...g?t=1278200053

No IMG due to the size of the pic.

[Thaeric]

Thank you for your concern, Alyzar, it is always so pleasant to hear from you my friend.

What you are speaking of is Velsair, someone who joined our guild back in early beta, then immediately started pushing for us to get comfy with AI. Constantly preached about how great of a system they had etc etc. He even went so far as to appoint himself as diplomat with AI and began conversing with Shinzon on his own accord.
Shinzon can surely attest to the fact that Velsair contacted him about Forsaken if he remembers that far back. It was well before we ever allied with 13 and Netharian legion in beta.
Shinzon and I then spoke several times about possible arrangements between AI and Forsaken, and obviously, nothing ever came of those talks and we parted ways peacefully.
Shortly after, Velsair left Forsaken saying he was going to join AI. Next thing I knew he was joining/applying for Tellurian. I contacted you to caution you. If you read what I said ...
"I would caution you as he was very closely affiliated with AI, and I believe he may have been an active spy for them."

Please note the word "believe". I did not say I had proof, nor that I was making an accusation. That belief was based solely on the fact that Velsair had been pushing so hard and so quickly to get Forsaken involved with AI and then when we did not he suddenly left. Clearly, your own words show how much you distrusted the man.
Thank you for bringing your confused concern to my attention so that I could clarify my words for you.
Oh, and I don't know what ever became of Velsair, after he attempted to convince your guild to raid our beta house, I have never heard from him again.


Also, if you could clarify something for me... I don't see how being afraid someone has a spy in your guild nullifies someones intention to be neutral?? It's not as if we had spies out and about.

Again, I thank you for your concern. And please remember, if you are affiliated with a guild, they are welcome to sign the agreement like all others.

[ForsakenRankor]

Originally Posted by Thaeric

Thank you for your concern, Alyzar, it is always so pleasant to hear from you my friend.

What you are speaking of is Velsair, someone who joined our guild back in early beta, then immediately started pushing for us to get comfy with AI. Constantly preached about how great of a system they had etc etc. He even went so far as to appoint himself as diplomat with AI and began conversing with Shinzon on his own accord.
Shinzon can surely attest to the fact that Velsair contacted him about Forsaken if he remembers that far back. It was well before we ever allied with 13 and Netharian legion in beta.
Shinzon and I then spoke several times about possible arrangements between AI and Forsaken, and obviously, nothing ever came of those talks and we parted ways peacefully.
Shortly after, Velsair left Forsaken saying he was going to join AI. Next thing I knew he was joining/applying for Tellurian. I contacted you to caution you. If you read what I said ...
"I would caution you as he was very closely affiliated with AI, and I believe he may have been an active spy for them."

Please note the word "believe". I did not say I had proof, nor that I was making an accusation. That belief was based solely on the fact that Velsair had been pushing so hard and so quickly to get Forsaken involved with AI and then when we did not he suddenly left. Clearly, your own words show how much you distrusted the man.
Thank you for bringing your confused concern to my attention so that I could clarify my words for you.
Oh, and I don't know what ever became of Velsair, after he attempted to convince your guild to raid our beta house, I have never heard from him again.


Also, if you could clarify something for me... I don't see how being afraid someone has a spy in your guild nullifies someones intention to be neutral?? It's not as if we had spies out and about.

Again, I thank you for your concern. And please remember, if you are affiliated with a guild, they are welcome to sign the agreement like all others.

Well said.

[ThePotatoLord]

Originally Posted by Thaeric

Thank you for your concern, Alyzar, it is always so pleasant to hear from you my friend.

What you are speaking of is Velsair, someone who joined our guild back in early beta, then immediately started pushing for us to get comfy with AI. Constantly preached about how great of a system they had etc etc. He even went so far as to appoint himself as diplomat with AI and began conversing with Shinzon on his own accord.
Shinzon can surely attest to the fact that Velsair contacted him about Forsaken if he remembers that far back. It was well before we ever allied with 13 and Netharian legion in beta.
Shinzon and I then spoke several times about possible arrangements between AI and Forsaken, and obviously, nothing ever came of those talks and we parted ways peacefully.
Shortly after, Velsair left Forsaken saying he was going to join AI. Next thing I knew he was joining/applying for Tellurian. I contacted you to caution you. If you read what I said ...
"I would caution you as he was very closely affiliated with AI, and I believe he may have been an active spy for them."

Please note the word "believe". I did not say I had proof, nor that I was making an accusation. That belief was based solely on the fact that Velsair had been pushing so hard and so quickly to get Forsaken involved with AI and then when we did not he suddenly left. Clearly, your own words show how much you distrusted the man.
Thank you for bringing your confused concern to my attention so that I could clarify my words for you.
Oh, and I don't know what ever became of Velsair, after he attempted to convince your guild to raid our beta house, I have never heard from him again.


Also, if you could clarify something for me... I don't see how being afraid someone has a spy in your guild nullifies someones intention to be neutral?? It's not as if we had spies out and about.

Again, I thank you for your concern. And please remember, if you are affiliated with a guild, they are welcome to sign the agreement like all others.

If you don't mind a bit of third-party analysis, I think I understand what was going on with the believed spy. I doubt AI is trying to act like evil overlords; casting their minions away when they are no longer useful. More likely is that this individual wanted to try and build a background or reputation with AI because they wanted to be able try and get around some requirements or try and jump past the new guy stage of joining, regardless of motivation they undoubtedly wanted to impress AI. Obviously this didn't work because 1) they didn't accomplish anything and/or 2) AI wasn't interested in any of it.

Master plan having failed, they flounder about until they find another guild to latch onto.

But this is all my speculation, take it for what you will.

[Thaeric]

Originally Posted by ThePotatoLord

If you don't mind a bit of third-party analysis, I think I understand what was going on with the believed spy. I doubt AI is trying to act like evil overlords; casting their minions away when they are no longer useful. More likely is that this individual wanted to try and build a background or reputation with AI because they wanted to be able try and get around some requirements or try and jump past the new guy stage of joining, regardless of motivation they undoubtedly wanted to impress AI. Obviously this didn't work because 1) they didn't accomplish anything and/or 2) AI wasn't interested in any of it.

Master plan having failed, they flounder about until they find another guild to latch onto.

But this is all my speculation, take it for what you will.

This is a very interesting perspective. thank you.

Honestly, I don't think it really matters, this was a long time ago. *shrug*

But sincerely, thank you for the point of view. very interesting idea, and very likely. We have no issues with AI, and you will notice I have never made any accusations towards AI.

[ThePotatoLord]

Originally Posted by Thaeric

This is a very interesting perspective. thank you.

Honestly, I don't think it really matters, this was a long time ago. *shrug*

But sincerely, thank you for the point of view. very interesting idea, and very likely. We have no issues with AI, and you will notice I have never made any accusations towards AI.

I understand, I didn't think AI would have any sort of spy which is why I suspected that it was some sort of third party scheme.

[Rathius]

Originally Posted by ThePotatoLord

I understand, I didn't think AI would have any sort of spy which is why I suspected that it was some sort of third party scheme.

For as much as it may be worth, due to my position on the topic. I have no knowledge of AI having any spies. I have been present in many of the 'upper management' discussions and the stance has always been very much against the use of spies.

[LightsabeR]

Originally Posted by Rathius

For as much as it may be worth, due to my position on the topic. I have no knowledge of AI having any spies. I have been present in many of the 'upper management' discussions and the stance has always been very much against the use of spies.

Well we sent Lachry to spy on Vari... oops... I mean... yeah, no spies here.

[Nidhogg]

Originally Posted by Rathius

For as much as it may be worth, due to my position on the topic. I have no knowledge of AI having any spies. I have been present in many of the 'upper management' discussions and the stance has always been very much against the use of spies.

interesting, since back when we were still on talking terms Shinzon told me that AI had 'spies in every major guild'. I used to annoy him by asking 'so, who is your spy in our guild then?' he would say he didnt have any spies in CIR and I told him I felt insulted for not considering CIR a major guild

Oh and how about Shinzon his threat about destroying us from the inside out? wouldnt that involve a sort of, you know, insider?

Also, if you do not have ANY spies, where are your members then? they certainly arent in game, nor were they trying to attack 13 and Prophecy when they were buildig the keep. Just a few naked AI's showed up to help Amon and AQ.

Ask your guildleader about spies, he might be withholding some information from you.

Apologies Thaeric, this isnt the place to argue this I know, but AI claiming they probably do not have ANY spies is just to much

[Lerdoc]

Dead horses. Someone just reeeeeeeeeeealy loves to beat them to the point I think that this someone gets almost sexual pleasure experience by doing so.

[Syndic]

... Are you calling AI a dead horse?

[Lerdoc]

More like bringing same thing over and over and over and over to every single thread in political forum is that horse.

Its so damn boring to the point where ... hmm ... Its boring(brain almost dead after calculating about 10k statistics during weekend-suitable example not found)!

Political forum seriously went down from release

[Rathius]

I agree it is pretty pathetic. Most of it's so far fetched and/or constant that you can't even find it amusing.

Despite my opening disclaimer he decides to jump me for all kinds of things that I already put forth in the statement.

On top of that, Nidhogg, AI isn't some huge guild, or even large, never really was. But if you can't find us, you should look harder. We're not going to hang around somewhere that's pointless to be, that we can't do anything about. Use your logic for once, it might help.

[Golozhopenko]

But you call yourself Imperium, no? Isn't it supposed that you must have decent numbers at least? Or some imperial goals? Cause right now my newbie squad is more dedicated than whole "Aegis Imperium".

[Lerdoc]

Originally Posted by Golozhopenko

But you call yourself Imperium, no? Isn't it supposed that you must have decent numbers at least? Or some imperial goals? Cause right now my newbie squad is more dedicated than whole "Aegis Imperium".

Hey! My guild is named Kohorta witch means Cohort in english.

Last time I've checked my numbers didn't actually reflect roman cohort numbers I wonder if my numbers increased if I renamed it megazergzor? Oh well, bit less then 2 months to another guild orgy irl, so we'll work hard on increasing numbers to match the name as well.
I guess guild name does not have much to do with guild numbers? Damn, trolls are poor this days.

[chghes1]

If you ask me either the leader or the whole damn guild is just paranoid as hell about spies. Hell, they ban me after only one day because i refuse to use vent and then had the nerve to say i was a suspected spy. Lame as hell.

[Thaeric]

Originally Posted by chghes1

If you ask me either the leader or the whole damn guild is just paranoid as hell about spies. Hell, they ban me after only one day because i refuse to use vent and then had the nerve to say i was a suspected spy. Lame as hell.

You were exiled because:

1. you applied for the guild back in beta, and just now got around to showing up in game/vent for the first time, and as I told you in vent, I was in the process of removing inactive players. You had also not made any posts on our forums, or been active in any way shape or form.
2. just so happens the moment we start talking about building a house your suddenly interested in being in the middle of everything and ride out with our scouts to the construction site ahead of everyone else.
3. soon as resources start to arrive at house, you have to log for an unknown reason
4. group of 5 reds show up to a place that it out of the way and highly unlikely to be a normal "patrol" route for pkers, kill the builders, steal resources, and make off before our military got there.

Too coincidental if you ask me. Possibly incorrect, but I have a lot of people counting on me to do the right thing for the guild. I can't be expected to put one person above the sake of the entire guild, especially when they haven't even been an active part of the guild.

Over 7 months of being an active guild, and we have two potential spy incidents. I hardly think that qualifies as us being paranoid.

Thanks for allowing me to clear that up for everyone though, and good luck finding a guild.

[chghes1]

1. I had no idea what i was following rancor for until he told me he was scouting a place for a house. I just happen to meet them as i was searching for something to kill for loot after the spawn rates were reduced.

2. Guess what i have a life, my wife came in the house soaking wet because the car died on her at the mailbox, i had to logout really quick to be a husband and did not have time to fill you in.

3. I stop playing after a few days of release because all the damn bugs and memory leaks in the game had me to the point of agitation and i don't like the fact that a game for enjoyment had me so irritated. I also made it clear the same night that i did not like vent and that i was just now starting to play again and looking for some social aspect.

3. I've been part of only one guild sin Jan. 2010 and that guild made decided that TS was mandatory at release. Once beta was over i did not join their guild at release.

4. I have to chars Raiga and Fael, neither of those belong to any red guild nor do i play with anyone because of the lack of in game chat options. So yeah i refuse to use irc, vent, or TS and for that i play mostly solo all the damn time.

5. I logged on to the forsaken website to ask for advice in the forums and found out that i was removed. I log into the vent server in the chat section and was asking to speak with someone because i had no damn clue why i was removed, and yet none would even give me a chance to speak to anyone.

So yeah your paranoid and seeing shit that really didn't happen. I have no time or interest in your short sighted guild any longer. Maybe realize it's a fucking game and your guild isn't so damn important that people would join just for espionage.

[Thaeric]

Thank you for your input. Have fun in game!

[Rathius]

Originally Posted by chghes1

So yeah your paranoid and seeing shit that really didn't happen. I have no time or interest in your short sighted guild any longer. Maybe realize it's a fucking game and your guild isn't so damn important that people would join just for espionage.

With a comment like this, you're very much the short-sighted one.
There are many people who thrive on espionage. Despite the guild involved.

[Thaeric]

Originally Posted by Rathius

With a comment like this, you're very much the short-sighted one.
There are many people who thrive on espionage. Despite the guild involved.

No point in arguing with him about it. As I stated, I have to consider an entire guild worth of people when I make decisions. I have even had to let go of a couple recruits during their initiation phase simply because their personality did not mesh well with existing members.

Fair? No. Harsh? Maybe. Do I enjoy it? Hell no. Is it necessary? Yes, definitely.

But I have to do the best I can to keep the guild running well, keep the members happy, and keep the guild on target with its goals. Sadly, that means that some times, I have to cut things loose. In situations that could potentially cause tremendous damage to the stability or neutral status of Forsaken, I favor error on the side of caution with a quick and decisive movement, rather than inaction or an action that could cause us to lose more than a potential good member.

I understand that he would be upset, more-so if it was a bad call. I'll even say sorry if it'll make him feel better. But the fact remains that I will always put my guild before someones feelings.

---------------

Now please, Alyzar's post has sidetracked this thread enough. Let us return to the point of the OP and the document.

I am pleased to announce that two other guilds are currently in final stages of agreeing to sign the document, with just final approval from officers in their respective guilds. I won't say their names until they actually sign it. But the document is very much alive and well.

Also; Forsaken has established its houses, begun setting up weekly trading routes, as well as individual sales, and once we really turn up our production of materials, especially steel, we will have the finances to start placing public taverns.
We are looking for a site for the first one now. We would prefer a high traffic area within territory that can be considered mostly neutral.

Additionally, we are looking at hosting a small tournament in the near future. There will likely be a small admission fee, such as 1g per character, that will be used as the prizes for tournament.

[chghes1]

Originally Posted by Rathius

With a comment like this, you're very much the short-sighted one.
There are many people who thrive on espionage. Despite the guild involved.

I suppose you are correct in my short-sightedness concerning this aspect of a game. I don't personally have the view to put that much work into a game for entertainment after my real job, and to labeled such without a chance to speak for myself pretty much pissed me off.

[Thaeric]

Originally Posted by chghes1

to labeled such without a chance to speak for myself pretty much pissed me off.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are the one who went public with it?
In a matter of a few days your application would have been removed from our guild site with nary a word said about it to anyone.
You have effectively labeled yourself, regardless of how accurate we were in assuming you were a threat. Forsaken does not make a habit of making mountains out of ant hills. We have no reason to.

Again, as I said, good luck finding a guild, and enjoy MO. If it helps, I am sorry that you were removed from our guild.

[chghes1]

Originally Posted by Thaeric

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are the one who went public with it?
In a matter of a few days your application would have been removed from our guild site with nary a word said about it to anyone.
You have effectively labeled yourself, regardless of how accurate we were in assuming you were a threat.

Again, as I said, good luck finding a guild, and enjoy MO.

Going public with this has no effect whats so ever to me. I said you, as in you the guild leader labeled me as a spy on your forums. This post had some points made about spies and such so decided it was worth my time to make sure i put my horrible experience in the mix. You made a call and it was the wrong one, im no damn spy and i could care less about making it publicly known. Maybe it will help the next poor guy out who is thinking about joining your guild.

[Firebatt]

Originally Posted by chghes1

Going public with this has no effect whats so ever to me. I said you, as in you the guild leader labeled me as a spy on your forums. This post had some points made about spies and such so decided it was worth my time to make sure i put my horrible experience in the mix. You made a call and it was the wrong one, im no damn spy and i could care less about making it publicly known. Maybe it will help the next poor guy out who is thinking about joining your guild.

This is not a thread to argue about such things. If you wish to take something up with Thaeric about this incident, pm him about it. Sorry for butting in, but I felt a need here to speak up.

[Alyzar]

Originally Posted by Thaeric

Now please, Alyzar's post has sidetracked this thread enough. Let us return to the point of the OP and the document.

[Thaeric]

SS has decided to sign the agreement as well. My thanks go out to them for their support in Forsaken's efforts. We look forward to having them as trading partners, and guests at our events.

[ThePotatoLord]

I am cuirious about the taverns, what are you going to have in them? I assume that you will be using houses until SV adds actual tavern buildings/features.