The Underdwellers

[Rabb]

This is paraphrasing a post I made to another thread, but seeing how there are still "how about this race?" threads being made, and how the Devs are interested in maintaining the general humanoid form and dimensions so that all player races can be very well animated, here is an idea.

Sticking within human ethnic/racial lines, how about something like a formerly underground race of men, whose ancestors were cut off from the surface at some forgotten point in history? They could be related to a current tribe, or descended from a long ago vanished line. In the fairly recent past some of these subterranean men and women took it upon themselves to dig out from the catacombs, leave their cannibalistic, feral brothers and sisters behind and go to rejoin those living above in the light. This could have been in direct violation of a sacred taboo, thus leaving them ostracized and hated by their own kind in the earth below. At the same time, they may have found little acceptance among those in the lands above. In appearance they would be human in proportion, but gaunter, paler, and with larger eyes. They would be withdrawn, shadowy and secretive in demeanor, feeling bitterness that their determination to free themselves from their prison down below has only put them into the chains of prejudice and the shackles of exile.

At the point in history in which MO is set, these underdwellers would have been living in the light for several generations, losing much of the heightened senses that their still wild kin retain in the caverns. In this way, you wouldn't have to give them a racial bonus to seeing better in the dark or having super sensitive hearing, the first of which would be OP in an FPS style game (A brighter screen for a player of this race at night? Nope.). Set this way, aside from appearance, cultural peculiarities and perspective, they could be balanced with the other playable races and have only minor racial differences.

For those requesting a vampire race or dark elves, well, here they are in another context. It may be unreasonable to assume that when these underdwellers came to the surface they all chose to leave their cannabilistic ways behind. Perhaps dark, secretive hunting rituals may still exist among some segments of this race's society, even as others strive to fit in with the other races of men. Hunting rituals where underdwellers roam at night, seeking human prey, as their forefathers did in the labyrinths below. In as much as dark elves have always been twisted by some dark magic or some bleak experience in games where they are introduced, so these dark men have been shaped by their long banishment from the sun and the warmth.

Another facet to this race's creation could be that it adds a new dungeon denizen to the game, as explorers of the deepest caves can run into the feral ancestors of the playable race. As mobs, these wild underdwellers will still be able to see well in the pitch black, hear the slightest sound, and would exhibit no vestiges of human compassion or morality. No, they would show only ruthless cunning and brutal intelligence as they stalked any cousins from the sunlit lands foolish enough to venture down into the endless night.

[Eolendil]

Nice idea.

[Algae]

Are you proposing a blind race with some sort of sonic vision like a bat? Because if they have lived underground for the amount of time necessary to physically adapt they would probably be fungus eaters, not carnivores, and have semi transparent skin. The UV rays would literally cook their organs since they'd have no melanine whatsoever. They would never have gotten to the point where you place them. Every creature on earth that has evolved in those conditions are too far gone to ever reclaim the surface dwelling traits of their ancestors.

[Rabb]

Originally Posted by Algae

Are you proposing a blind race with some sort of sonic vision like a bat? Because if they have lived underground for the amount of time necessary to physically adapt they would probably be fungus eaters, not carnivores, and have semi transparent skin. The UV rays would literally cook their organs since they'd have no melanine whatsoever. They would never have gotten to the point where you place them. Every creature on earth that has evolved in those conditions are too far gone to ever reclaim the surface dwelling traits of their ancestors.

This does not need to be the case.

When you say "every creature on earth", you are referring to non-sentient creatures subjected to an underground environment long enough to have undergone major physical change, as in many tens or even hundreds of thousands of years at a minimum. The underdwellers need not have been underground long enough to have lost all ability to live on the surface.

And you know I am not suggesting sonic vision, I was clear. Large eyes, that bring in all available light. "Where's the light coming from"? Look, don't compare humans trapped underground with cave salamanders or crawfish. If they didn't die right away, then they would find some way to alter their environment. Humans do that. Be it discovery of faintly luminescent fungus that they could cultivate on the walls of caves to provide dim lighting in the living areas or whatever, they would seek to find light, food, fuel for fire, what have you. If they survived at all they would not spend forever without some comforts. This is what we do.

I anticipated this question, and your point is easily explained. Long enough underground for some physical changes, but not long enough as a non-tool using, non sentient species that has to adapt to its environment and not instead adapt its environment to itself. This race would work.

[MorallyRed]

Smeagol?

Nah mate, it sounds implantable and appeals to me, I am drawn to the dark side
They shouldn't be too unhuman though, I feel like that wouldn't blend well.

[Algae]

Originally Posted by Rabb

This does not need to be the case.

When you say "every creature on earth", you are referring to non-sentient creatures subjected to an underground environment long enough to have undergone major physical change, as in many tens or even hundreds of thousands of years at a minimum. The underdwellers need not have been underground long enough to have lost all ability to live on the surface.

How long then? It would be a rather quick transition as the people with the best ears, nose, natural sense of direction and tactile sensitivity would be the ones who lived and reproduced. Highly developed memory is also bound to develope out of necessity. The brain chemistry associated with the eyes would atrophy and alter the genetic imprint after a few generations.

And you know I am not suggesting sonic vision, I was clear. Large eyes, that bring in all available light. "Where's the light coming from"?

I understand that which is why I said they would never get to the point that you place them. Larger eyes will not help a person in a pitch black environment. Color vision would be lost in a near dark environment.

I think a sonic vision race would be cool. You see everything in a 3dimensional 2 second pulsating radar vision and nobody can sneak up on you.

Look, don't compare humans trapped underground with cave salamanders or crawfish. If they didn't die right away, then they would find some way to alter their environment. Humans do that.

No, a blind human stumbling around in a cave aren't going to be changing anything Most likely they'd all die well before they could help themselves assuming it was even possible to help themselves. If the sun suddenly went out and we were in the bronze age we couldn't just stand up and say "we are humans!!!" and make advanced tools and non-existent resources appear out of thin air. But for the sake of discussion I'll discuss the what if's with you.

Be it discovery of faintly luminescent fungus that they could cultivate on the walls of caves to provide dim lighting in the living areas or whatever, they would seek to find light, food, fuel for fire, what have you. If they survived at all they would not spend forever without some comforts. This is what we do.

So they are in a pitch black cave hundreds(?) of feet underground that is

a.) receiving oxygen
b.) reciving a flow of fresh water
c.) full of combustable marterials lying around
d.) plentiful enough in fungi growth to support an entire civilization.
e.) even possibly full of other critters

It's alittle far fetched taken at face value.

I anticipated this question, and your point is easily explained. Long enough underground for some physical changes, but not long enough as a non-tool using, non sentient species that has to adapt to its environment and not instead adapt its environment to itself. This race would work.

Please ellaborate. My questions are valid because the devs aren't going to impliment this race if they don't make biological sense. Think of this as a means to flesh out your idea.

I shall recommend that whatever was responsible involved a volcano and they were near it during the Conflux. This gives them a source of warmth: geo-thermal heat. Most water in deep caves are poisonous or highly acidic. These are the deep cave networks filled with crystal formations. So it can't be hundreads of feet deep. I need to do some thinking on this.

[Cepheiden]

Dude renember its still fantasy and not advanced class in logic...

[Rabb]

Originally Posted by Algae

How long then? It...

Originally Posted by Cepheiden

Dude renember its still fantasy and not advanced class in logic...

Exactly that. By the same logic Algae is proposing, there would be no creatures in deep caves at all in games such as MO, and fantasy MMOs are historically full of such creatures. They're not blind and using echolocation generally, either. On earth, it would be ridicuously implausible to find a race of cave dwellers cut off from the surface surviving for long periods of time, blind as a bat or big fish-eyed or otherwise. It would be as implausible as entering a cave and finding, say, winged dragons, or kobolds, etc. We are, of course, not talking about earth.

So, this set of points suggested by Algae:

"So they are in a pitch black cave hundreds(?) of feet underground that is

a.) receiving oxygen
b.) reciving a flow of fresh water
c.) full of combustable marterials lying around
d.) plentiful enough in fungi growth to support an entire civilization.
e.) even possibly full of other critters

It's alittle far fetched taken at face value"

And this assertion of his:

"My questions are valid because the devs aren't going to impliment this race if they don't make biological sense."

Are moot. By Algae's logic, fantasy games aren't worth making because they don't comform to an evolutionary model. Winged dragons, out. Magic wielding anything, out. Hell, nobody would have ever sat around in the 80s rolling 12 sided die to get eventually to where we are in fantasy gaming.


...the sands of time swirl...


"Man, that's just stupid! What do you mean that goblin just killed me? Because that dice thing said so? How come there's so many of them down here in this cave, anyway? You expect me to believe that this dungeon is

a.) receiving oxygen
b.) reciving a flow of fresh water
c.) full of combustable marterials lying around
d.) plentiful enough in fungi growth to support an entire civilization.
e.) even possibly full of other critters

? You're one crappy Dungeon Master, you know that? C'mon, guys, let's go play football." "... in related news, the game company TSR officially closed its doors today. The wane in interest in its unrealistic role playing game Dungeons and Dragons was largely thought to be to blame. And after the break, more year in review, 1984..."


...and back to the present...


Yeah. Not so much.

Algae, you said:

"The brain chemistry associated with the eyes would atrophy and alter the genetic imprint after a few generations."

This is cool enough to point out, fantasy world issues aside. You seem to be a fan of Lamarck's theory of species adaptation, the one in which parent gazelles spend their lives reaching for high leaves, so their children have longer necks and they spend their lives reaching for high leaves, and their children are giraffes. Most of us have backed the Darwinian model for macro-evolution, where you wouldn't get a parent's life experiences to make a "genetic imprint" to pass on to their children, but I'm glad to see you keeping the Lamarck dream alive. Discussion is good...

... but things don't work that way.

Okay, now that the scientific logic behind this (which as Cepheiden correctly pointed out is not really needed here) has been hashed to death we now both agree that this scenario on earth is highly improbable but also (hopefully) both agree tht in a fantasy setting it is not, Again, we are not discussing earth here. And kudos where kudos are due, I really liked your bit about geothermal needing to be present early on. Brilliant. That would enable them to get a start.

Oh, and your sonic vision people... Yeah, no. IMBA in an FPS game. How is the screen set up you're looking through? Clearly you're not seeing in the same way as other races. It will be easier to see targets or harder, but either way, imbalanced. the large eyes, pale skin and cannibalistic tendencies are included in my description of the Underdwellers for one reason: To take what is undoubtedly a large amount of interest in dark elves or goth oriented characters and give them a Mortal Online spin. That's right, cosmetics. Marketing. Important issues for those wanting to make a popular game. If the devs like it, great. If not, well it was fun to dream up and discuss. But either way, I sincerely doubt the "biological and evolutionary feasability" of it will have anything to do with their reaction.

That said, I don't want to end this negatively. You are clearly an intelligent, thoughtful person, Algae, and the idea of Underdwellers has struck a nerve of some kind. If you have additional points or ideas, then let's continue the discussion.

But, please, let's move to what can be done and why, and not argue evolution.

[Algae]

Originally Posted by Rabb

"My questions are valid because the devs aren't going to impliment this race if they don't make biological sense."

Are moot. By Algae's logic, fantasy games aren't worth making because they don't comform to an evolutionary model. Winged dragons, out. Magic wielding anything, out. Hell, nobody would have ever sat around in the 80s rolling 12 sided die to get eventually to where we are in fantasy gaming.

So a dragon is an evolutionary impossibility? And what does magic have to do with biological changes?

The devs said they are following an evolutionary model; therefore, it doesn't matter what you say or think. There is no rationalizing their vision away. You can pitch them whatever you want: flying wasp men, mermaids, mole men or whatever, but it's not going to fly with them and that is why I made what comments I did. If you can't handle critism, I'm sorry to have offended you.

"The brain chemistry associated with the eyes would atrophy and alter the genetic imprint after a few generations."

This is cool enough to point out, fantasy world issues aside. You seem to be a fan of Lamarck's theory of species adaptation, the one in which parent gazelles spend their lives reaching for high leaves, so their children have longer necks and they spend their lives reaching for high leaves, and their children are giraffes. Most of us have backed the Darwinian model for macro-evolution, where you wouldn't get a parent's life experiences to make a "genetic imprint" to pass on to their children, but I'm glad to see you keeping the Lamarck dream alive. Discussion is good but things don't work that way.

Says you. Not that the specifics of how evolutionary developement occur is relevant because nobody really knows the details of how a deer-like creature's descendants end up being a whale.

Macro-evolution theory? Yeah, about theories.... they're like assholes.

[Rabb]

Originally Posted by Algae

Blather, blather, self contradiction, blather, my e-peen is bruised, blather...

Aw.

Somebody can't admit when they're wrong.

how cute.



Edit: my arguments have been made, though I really don't know why we're arguing. As your mind is locked in a rigid goose step around your beliefs and I'm not going to change them, I'll let others reading this thread decide if it's a decent idea or no. I'm certainly not going to trade flames with you, Algae. This board is civilized compared to others, and I for one am hoping to keep it that way. Regardless, this "discussion" has turned into a "repeat yourself in multiple posts" contest, and I'm breaking the cycle.

[Rabb]

Originally Posted by MorallyRed

Smeagol?

Nah mate, it sounds implantable and appeals to me, I am drawn to the dark side
They shouldn't be too unhuman though, I feel like that wouldn't blend well.

I'm kind of envisioning something very close to human. I agree with you, the player race needs to be basically human, with just slight appearance differences. For example, much has been made in this thread of the "big eyes", and I'm actully just suggesting a large-normal size. Just enough of an increase to give them that doe-eyed look, which would seem to make them innocent... An innocence they hardly deserve.

Pale of skin, large eyed, a bit on the thin side... Think emo-goth. The devs have stated they want to be able to use the same animation models for all the races, and this way they can. And those hoping for a darker race that is not half-orc can find it here.

[Cradlejoe]

Originally Posted by Algae

And what does magic have to do with biological changes?

Quite alot I'd say, if those magic users focused more on their magic ability rather then their physical they would soon become weaker than most. Physically at least.


I support the idea for the "Underdwellers", I like it

Possibly they used magic to see underground?

[StJudas]

Play nice in this thread now.

[Krish Gorehowl]

Originally Posted by Algae

Are you proposing a blind race with some sort of sonic vision like a bat? Because if they have lived underground for the amount of time necessary to physically adapt they would probably be fungus eaters, not carnivores, and have semi transparent skin. The UV rays would literally cook their organs since they'd have no melanine whatsoever. They would never have gotten to the point where you place them. Every creature on earth that has evolved in those conditions are too far gone to ever reclaim the surface dwelling traits of their ancestors.

High five!

[Rabb]

Originally Posted by Cradlejoe

Quite alot I'd say, if those magic users focused more on their magic ability rather then their physical they would soon become weaker than most. Physically at least.


I support the idea for the "Underdwellers", I like it

Possibly they used magic to see underground?

Could be. After all, one can imagine that in the original group trapped in the caverns, some may well have been magic users. In fact, the community may have coalesced around these magic users, as it was only their magic that gave light in the beginning. By the time other sources of light (like bioluminescent molds, fungi and bacteria that could be cultured) were found, the magic users were the acknowledged head of society. Then, as they weakened physically, their affinity for magic increased. So they can be like the classic dark elf model and have talents for magic and perhaps negatives to melee. Although they might also make excellent ambush melee. There are many possibilities.

[MorallyRed]

A ritual type of magic and a rogue/assassin type of melee combat involving, of cource, skills such as hiding and stealth, would suit them well I think.
And don't start fighting with Algea just yet, s/he might have some nice things to add, like the below, which sounds rather nice to my ears.

I shall recommend that whatever was responsible involved a volcano and they were near it during the Conflux. This gives them a source of warmth: geo-thermal heat. Most water in deep caves are poisonous or highly acidic. These are the deep cave networks filled with crystal formations. So it can't be hundreads of feet deep. I need to do some thinking on this.

[Revoid]

awesome idea!

[Rabb]

Originally Posted by MorallyRed

A ritual type of magic and a rogue/assassin type of melee combat involving, of cource, skills such as hiding and stealth, would suit them well I think.
And don't start fighting with Algea just yet, s/he might have some nice things to add, like the below, which sounds rather nice to my ears.

They definitely should be aimed at being well suited to the dark magic arts and combat, though clearly some among them will probably be trying hard to turn their backs on such things and view them as stains on their past that need to stay in their past. In fact, those Underdwellers who secretly (or not so secretly) continue to follow the cannibalistic rituals and dark ceremonies may hold them in more contempt than they hold the other races.

And I hear you, MorallyRed, and you're right. Algae has a brain, s/he showed that, and I very much liked the volcanic suggesting. Gave them kudos for it in my second reply. It's a good idea.

No more fighting. Discussion time.

[Cradlejoe]

I think the devs should take a look at this threat
Might prove to be something they find interesting.

[Slann]

Its well thought, but too different between this race and the rest, havent it?

[Algae]

Originally Posted by Rabb

Aw.

Somebody can't admit when they're wrong.

how cute.

If your avatar is any indication you're definitely not cute. I wouldn't beat myself up if I were you. There is nothing right or wrong about your idea. It just isn't in line with what the devs have said they are doing with player races.

Edit: my arguments have been made, though I really don't know why we're arguing.

I'm not arguing with you. I just pointed out some logical fallacies in you idea that could be rectified. You need to learn to take constructive criticism. This is the internet after all.

I'm certainly not going to trade flames with you, Algae. This board is civilized compared to others, and I for one am hoping to keep it that way. Regardless, this "discussion" has turned into a "repeat yourself in multiple posts" contest, and I'm breaking the cycle.

I told you that such a people would not form under the conditions you gave. You replied and I elaborated my position. Then I told you why I elaborated (dev's using evolutionary model). Hardly a long drawn out distasteful argument. There wasn't a single flame.

[Rabb]

Originally Posted by Slann

Its well thought, but too different between this race and the rest, havent it?

Not really.

Not looking for a smeagol or a non-humanoid race. These will be humans. The differences in appearance I list are not designed to do anything more than provide a different range of skin color and facial feature options than the other humanoid races. They will live in towns on the surface, though perhaps the homes themselves are underground, or a mix of above and underground. Nothing too extreme.

And thanks.

[mspike6]

NIce idea, but i think it's little too late to be implemented in the release
maybe in the next expention or something

[Rabb]

Originally Posted by Algae

I'm not arguing with you.

You are arguing with me. Which is fine. Arguing can be part of discussion.

It is not being used to further discussion here, though. I gave you two detailed responses, point by point, to your positions, and you kept harping on your original points no matter how many holes had been shot in them. That's not a discussion, it's you throwing a monologue at me, and ignoring anything tossed back at you.

Forgive me if the prospect of seeing you repeat bad points in post after post leaves me feeling slightly underwhelmed. I guess you may think if you keep repeating them all will have to acknowledge the truth in them, but they're BAD POINTS. Comparing magic using, thinking people in a fantasy world to blind cave crawdads on earth is apples and oranges, and reinventing evolution to suit your own ill conceived ideas is a joke. I've complimented your obvious intelligence, and when you've presented a good idea I pointed it out and gave you an honest appraisal. And all I'm getting from you in return is unwarranted obstinence.

I could get that from my kids.



Look, fella, it's a fantasy game. Whatever inside track you seem to think you have on the devs' thinking, from their posting their concerns seem to be keeping things somewhat less faerie tailish than other games and within human dimensions so they can use existing animation models. The Underdwellers, in my opinion, fit that bill well. Ultimately, though, it's just an idea that some will like and some will not, and that will most likely go nowhere in the long run. So dont' take it so seriously, man.

Have fun with it.

[Rabb]

Originally Posted by mspike6

NIce idea, but i think it's little too late to be implemented in the release
maybe in the next expention or something

If it being too late to add a race means that this summer we will be playing MO, then I hope you are absolutely right. Ultimately, getting to play this game trumps all.

[MorallyRed]

Originally Posted by mspike6

NIce idea, but i think it's little too late to be implemented in the release
maybe in the next expention or something

It kinda sounds like an expansion race. I mean people that live underground is a scenario that could make for a sudden appearance. This could mean they have been living underground for xxx-years which gives a freer range to how much they have adept to living underground.

And atm I also prioritize an early launch over more races.

[Rabb]

Originally Posted by MorallyRed

It kinda sounds like an expansion race. I mean people that live underground is a scenario that could make for a sudden appearance. This could mean they have been living underground for xxx-years which gives a freer range to how much they have adept to living underground.

And atm I also prioritize an early launch over more races.

I think you both have an excellent point.

The "hey look what crawled out of a hole!" aspect could be useful in an expansion.

[Hogger]

I don't mean to necro a post. But I think this race is a excellent idea with flexibility of implementation as stated above.

I think its a great candidate for a "darker" race for MO as well.

All drama aside, I think it would be easy for the dev's to cook up an explanation of this race that wouldn't require a higher understanding of the evolutionary process of sentient beings.

[Fortinbras]

Originally Posted by Rabb

Sticking within human ethnic/racial lines, how about something like a formerly underground race of men, whose ancestors were cut off from the surface at some forgotten point in history? They could be related to a current tribe, or descended from a long ago vanished line. In the fairly recent past some of these subterranean men and women took it upon themselves to dig out from the catacombs, leave their cannibalistic, feral brothers and sisters behind and go to rejoin those living above in the light. This could have been in direct violation of a sacred taboo, thus leaving them ostracized and hated by their own kind in the earth below. At the same time, they may have found little acceptance among those in the lands above. In appearance they would be human in proportion, but gaunter, paler, and with larger eyes. They would be withdrawn, shadowy and secretive in demeanor, feeling bitterness that their determination to free themselves from their prison down below has only put them into the chains of prejudice and the shackles of exile.

Morlocks!

I like it greatly, but how would you represent their adaptation to subterranean life? They'd need to be able to play on the same mostly-over-ground field as everyone else.

[Rabb]

Originally Posted by Fortinbras

Morlocks!

I like it greatly, but how would you represent their adaptation to subterranean life? They'd need to be able to play on the same mostly-over-ground field as everyone else.

Morlocks! I never even thought of that. Great analogy.

Clearly, they are going to be a bit different than the other humanoid races as far as culture. For lore purposes, when they first emerged from the caverns (this would be several generations ago) they were largely nocturnal and found the sun unsettling and painful. They suffered sunburns and vision difficulties. But, as they had taken it upon themselves to follow the legends of their forefathers against strong racial taboo and transition back to the surface, they learned to cover themselves completely in the light of day and, over time, became less sensitive. Today, the remnants of this adaptation for low light, subterranean living are skin that is still paler than others' and eyes that are a bit larger (They were in low light underground, not no light. No blind cave crawdads here.) and a comfort with being active at night that the other races don't share, but nothing that need be built in as an advantage if the devs prefer a level playing field. Also, culturally, there are those (especially among the young) who are tired of the prejudice shown them by the other races and who look for something in their heritage to be proud of. As such, they keep old traditions alive, including hunting live prey (including humans) and devouring it raw in a pack. There may also be other rituals involved with this sect of Underdweller society, and it gives those wishing to have a darker play experience an opportunity to have a character who is culturally a ritualistic cannibal proficient in dark arts who fits (I believe) within the devs' desire to keep the races a bit more similar than we've seen in other MMOs. Those calling for the old stand bys of dark elves or even vampires will have their race, the world will have a dark man, and we can play morlocks.

Win, win, win.

[Rabb]

Originally Posted by Hogger

I don't mean to necro a post. But I think this race is a excellent idea with flexibility of implementation as stated above.

I think its a great candidate for a "darker" race for MO as well.

All drama aside, I think it would be easy for the dev's to cook up an explanation of this race that wouldn't require a higher understanding of the evolutionary process of sentient beings.

Darker race is needed imo as well. The half-orc can be violently darkhearted, but the Underdwellers are a bit more devious in their makeup. And it's hard to explain half-orcs lorewise if there are too many people playing them. After all, start seeing oodles of li'l half-orc kids bopping around and that excuse of "I was a victim of war!" the mothers are using starts to sound a bit thin... For the sake of lore you may have to set the NPC women of MO up to be size queens...

O_O

[Sweeky Squeeky]

Remember that Gnomes and Dwarves were supposed to be underground dwellers. Dwarves spent loads of time mining their precious gems. Gnomes were the same way, though built different than their cousins.

Even in the movie Lord of the Rings the dwarves had this underground city. Everquest is not the first bunch of people to believe in an underground society that thrived.

I believe the underground areas can pose lots of challenges (think of journey to the center of the earth). Areas that didnt ONLY have to be dark, damp tunnels.

Please consider this idea.

Sweeky