What Combat Should look like (Video)

[Marazis]

already fighting system is amazing and no worse than that of m&b ! but server must be more stable without this big lag... ahhh i love fights from early beta this is what i am waiting for

[Henrik Nystrom]

Originally Posted by madsholme

how about you reply all those threads asking what your plan and idea is? since you change everything from beta, where the combat was more slow, and used more stam, there are a LOT of people who would prefere that, instead of this system we got now.

so please do answer these:
1: are u gonna stick to the system now
2: are u gonna go back to how it was in beta few hits = dead
3: what is your aim towards combat? that is teh goal..

caus all the stuff matt said about slow realistic combat was thrown away when the game whent live, even thought the combat in beta was WAY better than we have now! So please answer, instead of keeping doding the bullet on this one!

We seem to forget 2 important things, issues we had back in combat beta.
1. About 90% of our testers complained about running out of stam not being able to kill anyone fleeing. See in combat beta you build nothing and loose nothing you plaid it like a duel to death kinda way. So this wasnt noticed by everyone of the way of you fighting back there. But if you thought about chase someone and kill him, then just forget about it, you would never kill him as you would run out of stam with 1 swing when chasing someone.
Ya we all plaid combat beta pretty much so we know what you mean by some things "felt" better back then. But stripping everything down and back to that "generic" system you would probably feel, wtf happend, was this what we enjoyed back then? I cant even finish someone off now wtf change it back and then make it better!

That is somewhat fixed in todays combat system, something most people think works better compared to combat beta..

2. Everyone started as a generic character with 100ish value in everything, no skills no nothing invloved effecting combat. Everyone learned what to build and used that and they all went down in like you said, a few hits.

Today we have 10 things to include into these calculations which affect the outcome totally.

So its easy just to say combat beta was better make it happen.
I think we have a decent core to build from here, we are listening to you each patch to see what we can improve, as we are not totally happy with the combat as well. But We believe we will get there soon enough with your feedback. I just want to remind everyone again that we want to have all parts in our combat before we talking about rebuilding it. As we lack some important things other than overall ballance. As in special moves, more balance in the spam klick=crap dam and stam usage. Counter block attack which we are enabling in this next patch, some of you got to try this back in the old beta as well which worked pretty well. Each weapon group will shortly get their "special" move "special purpose". Optional how to swing from one side to another ala m&b, or MO way. to give more options. With armor to correctly calculate diff damage types and weapons getting different damage types different ways of using them to affect the damage is just multiplaying the strategic of fighting. It's getting more and more complex and player skill driven to success.

So like you can see, we got a few things to add before we discuss to totally rework the core if necessary.

And no, its never valid to compare or say make MO combat as any single player or multi player combat game. It simply doesnt work that way even if the mp supports 128 players. Its still a huge difference compared to our mmo world. But some areas is more or less doable to get close to or simulate. This is what we are looking at when "comparing" to a mp/sp combat game.

[Henrik Nystrom]

Originally Posted by JimyTheHand

lol can you imagine the lag involved if this was MO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDq_E...eature=related

Reminds me of our first large scale battles, almost as laggy and look almost about the same amount of players cept we had real players

[Isher]

Originally Posted by Henrik Nystrom

But if you thought about chase someone and kill him, then just forget about it, you would never kill him as you would run out of stam with 1 swing when chasing someone.

Ya we all plaid combat beta pretty much so we know what you mean by some things "felt" better back then. But stripping everything down and back to that "generic" system you would probably feel, wtf happend, was this what we enjoyed back then? I cant even finish someone off now wtf change it back and then make it better!

Since you're gonna be looking at it anyway at some point...

I think there are ways to have combat beta stam and still be able to finish ppl. Sure you're not going to take off sprinting immediately if you've just got done swinging your sword around, but your enemy at 1/3 life is going to be limping away. He shouldn't even be able to replenish stam at that point, if he wanted to get away he should have though about not getting his knee bashed in by your hammer. Your stam, meanwhile, should shoot right back up since you're recovering your balance and swing momentum (unless he carved you up). Age of chiv got this balance right after a lot of testing. Just copy all the code over, right?

[madsholme]

Originally Posted by Henrik Nystrom

We seem to forget 2 important things, issues we had back in combat beta.
1. About 90% of our testers complained about running out of stam not being able to kill anyone fleeing. See in combat beta you build nothing and loose nothing you plaid it like a duel to death kinda way. So this wasnt noticed by everyone of the way of you fighting back there. But if you thought about chase someone and kill him, then just forget about it, you would never kill him as you would run out of stam with 1 swing when chasing someone.
Ya we all plaid combat beta pretty much so we know what you mean by some things "felt" better back then. But stripping everything down and back to that "generic" system you would probably feel, wtf happend, was this what we enjoyed back then? I cant even finish someone off now wtf change it back and then make it better!

That is somewhat fixed in todays combat system, something most people think works better compared to combat beta..

2. Everyone started as a generic character with 100ish value in everything, no skills no nothing invloved effecting combat. Everyone learned what to build and used that and they all went down in like you said, a few hits.

Today we have 10 things to include into these calculations which affect the outcome totally.

So its easy just to say combat beta was better make it happen.
I think we have a decent core to build from here, we are listening to you each patch to see what we can improve, as we are not totally happy with the combat as well. But We believe we will get there soon enough with your feedback. I just want to remind everyone again that we want to have all parts in our combat before we talking about rebuilding it. As we lack some important things other than overall ballance. As in special moves, more balance in the spam klick=crap dam and stam usage. Counter block attack which we are enabling in this next patch, some of you got to try this back in the old beta as well which worked pretty well. Each weapon group will shortly get their "special" move "special purpose". Optional how to swing from one side to another ala m&b, or MO way. to give more options. With armor to correctly calculate diff damage types and weapons getting different damage types different ways of using them to affect the damage is just multiplaying the strategic of fighting. It's getting more and more complex and player skill driven to success.

So like you can see, we got a few things to add before we discuss to totally rework the core if necessary.

And no, its never valid to compare or say make MO combat as any single player or multi player combat game. It simply doesnt work that way even if the mp supports 128 players. Its still a huge difference compared to our mmo world. But some areas is more or less doable to get close to or simulate. This is what we are looking at when "comparing" to a mp/sp combat game.

tnx for the feedback! cant wait to try the new things!

i just felt if we had the old system, with slower run speed, if you are hurt it would work pretty ok. But cant wait to try the new stuff out.

[Baggen]

Originally Posted by Henrik Nystrom

We seem to forget 2 important things, issues we had back in combat beta.
1. About 90% of our testers complained about running out of stam not being able to kill anyone fleeing. See in combat beta you build nothing and loose nothing you plaid it like a duel to death kinda way. So this wasnt noticed by everyone of the way of you fighting back there. But if you thought about chase someone and kill him, then just forget about it, you would never kill him as you would run out of stam with 1 swing when chasing someone.

But is not this perticular thing actually "solved" now due to combat sprinting having higher speed then out of combat run/sprint? Combining this with the currently owerpowered race combo makes running a waste of time since it always ends with the poke in the back for the kill as you notice all recent pvp videos have. (since people actually try to run even though its pointless atm)

Personally i think the "not beeing able to choose to run" is hardly better then the "not beeing able to finish a runner" we had during combat beta, shouldent there be a better way for the future for this? Do you have any ideas on this for the future like perhaps lowering combat sprint speed but beeing able to do attackt to legs that will hurt opponents max running speed for a duration of time?


An other idea i had about balancing speed while not on mount would simply be giving STR attribute a negative modifier to maximum running speed, this would remove the possibility that we have now to have the fastest, strongest, most hp possible, most stamina possible char combo. In other words there would not be the ultimate easy tank build you would be forced to do some tradeoff between speed/hp/damage maxed in 2 would be possible but not all as it is atm.

[metavision]

Originally Posted by Henrik Nystrom

We seem to forget 2 important things, issues we had back in combat beta.
1. About 90% of our testers complained about running out of stam not being able to kill anyone fleeing. See in combat beta you build nothing and loose nothing you plaid it like a duel to death kinda way. So this wasnt noticed by everyone of the way of you fighting back there. But if you thought about chase someone and kill him, then just forget about it, you would never kill him as you would run out of stam with 1 swing when chasing someone.
Ya we all plaid combat beta pretty much so we know what you mean by some things "felt" better back then. But stripping everything down and back to that "generic" system you would probably feel, wtf happend, was this what we enjoyed back then? I cant even finish someone off now wtf change it back and then make it better!

That is somewhat fixed in todays combat system, something most people think works better compared to combat beta..

2. Everyone started as a generic character with 100ish value in everything, no skills no nothing invloved effecting combat. Everyone learned what to build and used that and they all went down in like you said, a few hits.

Today we have 10 things to include into these calculations which affect the outcome totally.

So its easy just to say combat beta was better make it happen.
I think we have a decent core to build from here, we are listening to you each patch to see what we can improve, as we are not totally happy with the combat as well. But We believe we will get there soon enough with your feedback. I just want to remind everyone again that we want to have all parts in our combat before we talking about rebuilding it. As we lack some important things other than overall ballance. As in special moves, more balance in the spam klick=crap dam and stam usage. Counter block attack which we are enabling in this next patch, some of you got to try this back in the old beta as well which worked pretty well. Each weapon group will shortly get their "special" move "special purpose". Optional how to swing from one side to another ala m&b, or MO way. to give more options. With armor to correctly calculate diff damage types and weapons getting different damage types different ways of using them to affect the damage is just multiplaying the strategic of fighting. It's getting more and more complex and player skill driven to success.

So like you can see, we got a few things to add before we discuss to totally rework the core if necessary.

And no, its never valid to compare or say make MO combat as any single player or multi player combat game. It simply doesnt work that way even if the mp supports 128 players. Its still a huge difference compared to our mmo world. But some areas is more or less doable to get close to or simulate. This is what we are looking at when "comparing" to a mp/sp combat game.

Well combat is way off, because there is no base.

Currently, there are weapons that require little, or no stamina... the only weapons that should have such a benefit are daggers, which have limited range and output. Not spears, etc..


I think you need to balance stamina use on all weapons, pronto.

To be able to blindly swing your weapons with absolutely no thought/worry of stamina control is wrong. Currently through macro'ing certain players are swinging/thrusting their weapons as fast as 3x per second, and doing so while following their prey and engaging them in mid run... ...even if that someone wasn't engaged in combat, but too just have another roll-up in combat and chase you down spamming their attacks? Again with no fear, or concern placed on managing their stamina..?

Even a 5% increase on per swing use of stamina on all weapons will change the game tremendously.




There just doesn't seem to be pros & cons anymore.

Such as... why can mounted horsemen climb and chase after people on un-even terrain with such ease? , in full gallop? Wouldn't such a feat REQUIRE a walk, or trot pace..? Just simple things like that make an incredible difference.

Also, why doesn't it require stamina to get on (off) a horse? Shouldn't doing so, cost as least as much stamina as jumping, or even slightly more? Since you are heaving yourself up on top of an animal... (again) a massive difference in combat, if a person has to wait 5 seconds, before climbing up on his horse.. or must dismount to effectively give chase in the mountains, etc..

These are easy, logical steps that add pros and cons to each choice in game, each ability, skill & mechanic.




Also, stamina can be used to slow down/shrink the circle (or area) of combat, so that when weapons are drawn... it means something.

First to draw their weapon might put themselves as a dissadvantage... if someone decided to flee... (but doing so ONLY after their foe pulls their weapon...), knowing it take more stamina to give chase when weapon is out, or that it will take 1.5 seconds to put it away and give chase..



The game mechanics are solid, you need to have a Pro & Con to every action. Not just balance..

[Daveraa]

Originally Posted by Baggen

Personally i think the "not beeing able to choose to run" is hardly better then the "not beeing able to finish a runner" we had during combat beta, shouldent there be a better way for the future for this? Do you have any ideas on this for the future like perhaps lowering combat sprint speed but beeing able to do attackt to legs that will hurt opponents max running speed for a duration of time?

This!

I actually think if a player wants to flee then that should be a real and viable option, lets face it many character builds have no chance in fight and running is their only defensive option. Take that away and you are just pushing the game ever further towards pure PvP and away from varied playstyles.

If you want to spring an ambush on someone then it should require team work, you should surround them and/or have archers to bring them down if they flee. An armoured man with a whacking great big sword or spear in hand cannot hope to keep pace with a fleeing light armoured or cloth wearing man let alone actually attack him mid run. This is as it should be, those who want to fight will do so, those who don't will rabbit and the onus is on the attacker to find a way to prevent this if he can.

One option I think someone mentioned (might of been in conversations with my work mate here actually) would be to lockout sprinting/jogging when within a certain radius of someone in combat mode. Not sure if this would really work but its worth thinking about. That way once you are "in melee" you can only break and run if you can force some distance between you and your attacker.

Alternatively add a stagger effect if someone lands a hit on you while you are sprinting or jogging. This would both serve to discourage sprinting around in combat (IE jousting) and also mitigate someone ability to escape, although they would have to do so quickly before the person got out of effective weapons range. I would not recommend this working for arrows however.

[Bevo]

Originally Posted by Daveraa

Take that away and you are just pushing the game ever further towards pure PvP and away from varied playstyles.

Honistly I believe MO has the best crafting system put into an MMO since SWG. The crafting game rocks. There is so much in this game that places such an huge importance on that crafting system that there really is a bit of a lack of pvp in MO. There is a pretty big lack of pvp guilds around and even the most hardcore pvp guilds place so much emphases on non-pvp stuff. Right now I don't believe there is to much danger of the game being pushed to far into a "pure pvp" game. I don't think it is possible for MO to go that way, not with the how important crafting is. And I think that is great.

The rest of you post however, I think you had some interesting ideas. =)

[Hodo]

Originally Posted by Bevo

Honistly I believe MO has the best crafting system put into an MMO since SWG. The crafting game rocks. There is so much in this game that places such an huge importance on that crafting system that there really is a bit of a lack of pvp in MO. There is a pretty big lack of pvp guilds around and even the most hardcore pvp guilds place so much emphases on non-pvp stuff. Right now I don't believe there is to much danger of the game being pushed to far into a "pure pvp" game. I don't think it is possible for MO to go that way, not with the how important crafting is. And I think that is great.

The crafting could be improved. The biggest thing that may balance the economy and solve the "wisent" farming problem is butchery.

We have the tables, but not the skills.

[javifugitivo]

It will be a good option that the speed can be connected to HitPoints:

100% HP = Full Speed of possible speed
-50% HP = 75% Speed of total possible speed
-25% HP = 50% Speed of total possible speed

With this, you can avoid the people fleeing when they are losing.

[-TYRANT-]

Originally Posted by Henrik Nystrom

We seem to forget 2 important things, issues we had back in combat beta.
1. About 90% of our testers complained about running out of stam not being able to kill anyone fleeing. See in combat beta you build nothing and loose nothing you plaid it like a duel to death kinda way. So this wasnt noticed by everyone of the way of you fighting back there. But if you thought about chase someone and kill him, then just forget about it, you would never kill him as you would run out of stam with 1 swing when chasing someone.
Ya we all plaid combat beta pretty much so we know what you mean by some things "felt" better back then. But stripping everything down and back to that "generic" system you would probably feel, wtf happend, was this what we enjoyed back then? I cant even finish someone off now wtf change it back and then make it better!

That is somewhat fixed in todays combat system, something most people think works better compared to combat beta..

2. Everyone started as a generic character with 100ish value in everything, no skills no nothing invloved effecting combat. Everyone learned what to build and used that and they all went down in like you said, a few hits.

I think I have a suggestion that will A) solve all stamina issues or B) make all stamina issues 100% easier to balance from now on

Remove sprinting, jumping, and dodging from the main stamina bar, and add them to their own seperate stamina system. The movement stamina bar could simply be hidden from the player, and have audio cues as to how low it is. Slight breathing noise at 75% and just make it louder/faser from there. All players should be able to hear it.

What this will do is allow you to not have to worry about giving players enough stamina to fight AND chase people down. Many popular single player or arena-based multiplayer games have seperate stamina systems for movement and combat. Either their seperate, or the stamina bar only functions for one of them. Trying to balance movement and combat on the same stamina sytem is extremly difficult, I've had to do it with a previous project before and eventually came to the conclusion that the best way to manage it is with 2 stamina systems.

To keep it balanced though, each stamina system would have to influence the other in some way. I guess there are countless ways to create some type of connection but the easiest way would be something like this:

combat stamina is below 20% - decrease movement stamina regen
movement stamian is below 20% - decrease combat stamina regen

combat stamina is below 10% - decrease movement speed
movement stamian is below 10% - decrease damage

This all could be a lot more complex, and a lot better, but the basic idea is this, 1 main stamina bar for combat, a hidden bar for movement, and some type of system for making each bar influence the other. This would give you complete fredom to focus completly on combat stamina costs without needing to balance sprinting and dodging.

[chickenkicker]

Originally Posted by -TYRANT-

I think I have a suggestion that will A) solve all stamina issues or B) make all stamina issues 100% easier to balance from now on

Remove sprinting, jumping, and dodging from the main stamina bar, and add them to their own seperate stamina system. The movement stamina bar could simply be hidden from the player, and have audio cues as to how low it is. Slight breathing noise at 75% and just make it louder/faser from there. All players should be able to hear it.

What this will do is allow you to not have to worry about giving players enough stamina to fight AND chase people down. Many popular single player or arena-based multiplayer games have seperate stamina systems for movement and combat. Either their seperate, or the stamina bar only functions for one of them. Trying to balance movement and combat on the same stamina sytem is extremly difficult, I've had to do it with a previous project before and eventually came to the conclusion that the best way to manage it is with 2 stamina systems.

To keep it balanced though, each stamina system would have to influence the other in some way. I guess there are countless ways to create some type of connection but the easiest way would be something like this:

combat stamina is below 20% - decrease movement stamina regen
movement stamian is below 20% - decrease combat stamina regen

combat stamina is below 10% - decrease movement speed
movement stamian is below 10% - decrease damage

This all could be a lot more complex, and a lot better, but the basic idea is this, 1 main stamina bar for combat, a hidden bar for movement, and some type of system for making each bar influence the other. This would give you complete fredom to focus completly on combat stamina costs without needing to balance sprinting and dodging.

this

Originally Posted by javifugitivo

It will be a good option that the speed can be connected to HitPoints:

100% HP = Full Speed of possible speed
-50% HP = 75% Speed of total possible speed
-25% HP = 50% Speed of total possible speed

With this, you can avoid the people fleeing when they are losing.

the idea is not to stop the people from fleeing but to make sure the fleeing party has stam to do so and aggressors can give chase.

[metavision]

Originally Posted by -TYRANT-

I think I have a suggestion that will A) solve all stamina issues or B) make all stamina issues 100% easier to balance from now on

Remove sprinting, jumping, and dodging from the main stamina bar, and add them to their own seperate stamina system. The movement stamina bar could simply be hidden from the player, and have audio cues as to how low it is. Slight breathing noise at 75% and just make it louder/faser from there. All players should be able to hear it.

What this will do is allow you to not have to worry about giving players enough stamina to fight AND chase people down. Many popular single player or arena-based multiplayer games have seperate stamina systems for movement and combat. Either their seperate, or the stamina bar only functions for one of them. Trying to balance movement and combat on the same stamina sytem is extremly difficult, I've had to do it with a previous project before and eventually came to the conclusion that the best way to manage it is with 2 stamina systems.

To keep it balanced though, each stamina system would have to influence the other in some way. I guess there are countless ways to create some type of connection but the easiest way would be something like this:

combat stamina is below 20% - decrease movement stamina regen
movement stamian is below 20% - decrease combat stamina regen

combat stamina is below 10% - decrease movement speed
movement stamian is below 10% - decrease damage

This all could be a lot more complex, and a lot better, but the basic idea is this, 1 main stamina bar for combat, a hidden bar for movement, and some type of system for making each bar influence the other. This would give you complete fredom to focus completly on combat stamina costs without needing to balance sprinting and dodging.

I don't like this idea^, because all you are doing is adding another bar for combat. Stamina is stamina... how out of breath your character is.

Secondly, combat is movement... just more engaging, so manage it accordingly. You can't separate it from jumping, or swimming.. or swinging your axe..

[chickenkicker]

Originally Posted by metavision

I don't like this idea^, because all you are doing is adding another bar for combat. Stamina is stamina... how out of breath your character is.

Secondly, combat is movement... just more engaging, so manage it accordingly. You can't separate it from jumping, or swimming.. or swinging your axe..

$10 says i can take a axe and chop the shit out of things wildly till my arms are like rubber bands. stop for 1-2 quick breaths and run just fine. if you cant do this you smoke to much and or you spend way to much time behind your comp. now add in the fact that your in a life and death situation and adrenalin will flowing though you like beer on a sat. night

with that said i dont see why mutable stam counters that are working together to find calculate your real exhaustion unreasonable.

[Hodo]

Originally Posted by chickenkicker

$10 says i can take a axe and chop the shit out of things wildly till my arms are like rubber bands. stop for 1-2 quick breaths and run just fine. if you cant do this you smoke to much and or you spend way to much time behind your comp. now add in the fact that your in a life and death situation and adrenalin will flowing though you like beer on a sat. night

with that said i dont see why mutable stam counters that are working together to find calculate your real exhaustion unreasonable.

I see what you all are trying to say. And I am not saying I like the other idea better. But... put on armour swing a weapon a lot in combat you will use more than just your arms. At least I use more than just my arms when I fight in armour against another armoured opponent. If I fight till I am exhausted, I dont think can run from anyone. I know because I often fight other people till they are tired then I "win" the fight.

[-TYRANT-]

Originally Posted by metavision

I don't like this idea^, because all you are doing is adding another bar for combat. Stamina is stamina... how out of breath your character is.

Secondly, combat is movement... just more engaging, so manage it accordingly. You can't separate it from jumping, or swimming.. or swinging your axe..

My suggestion takes muscle fatigue into account. In RL combat, unless your some super-trained pro fighter, you'll often run into issues with your upper body feeling more fatigued than your lower body, depending on your movement vs attacking/defending combat style. So think of the suggestion as not only simulating respiration, but simulating the idea of growing tired from a lot of footwork but still having your arms reasonably fresh to make a few good strikes. Or simulating that feeling when you've been in the corner defending yourself, throwing a few counters, and finally escaping and your legs are good to go, while your arms are exhausted.

I know that probly sounds like one step towards TOO realistic, but the main thing is this, it solves several major balance issues that SV has been constantly tweaking since mid-beta. Like he said, one of the first stamina issues was that combat "felt" awesome when people didn't have to chase eachother, then when death got more annoying people needed to be able to fight on the move, factor in a shitload of possible weapon builds and stamina costs, and things get complicated real fast. So yea, it's not just stamina I'm trying to replicate, it's just an overal more accurate simulation of fatigue and a more powerful tool for balance.

edit: about you saying combat is movement, I attempted to address that by suggesting that each stamina bar have a substantial effect on the other, so they are "connected" through some means. That way, you can't just attack like crazy, run out of combat stam, sprint til your out of movement stam, then attack again when your combat stam is full. There should be built-in penalties for that type of play style.

[Demetrios]

Originally Posted by Hodo

Oddly enough I agree with Tyrant on this statement.

Ummm.... Yeah sideways sprinting = WTF twitch pwned n00b = unrealistic and retarded looking = not wasting my money.

I think overall it beats the shit out of WoW and 99% of all the other games out there and the game has already been released so.... Balance, Polish, Rinsh, Repeat. I'm pretty excited about the "special moves" they're adding and want to see how they defer from other mmos where it's just a hotkey spam race. Also, unless I'm mistaken, I have to open my paper-doll and manually change my weapon every time. How about you add another slot so we can scroll weapons so that we can accually be mages and archers effectively. In it's current state it makes the game seem very unprofessional, and I'd have to agree. Just a thought.

[Hodo]

Originally Posted by Demetrios

Ummm.... Yeah sideways sprinting = WTF twitch pwned n00b = unrealistic and retarded looking = not wasting my money.

I dont like the sideways sprinting, or the speed fighting. But it has been stated that this is going to be worked on.

[BergenCo]

Impressive sounding game, no mortal online though.

[OneManWonder]

Maybe this was already said but... M&B has a cRPG mod of 150 people that has it's "Leveling aspect" in place. You can buy armor etc, and start off as a peasant with some basic weapons. You get exp for kills and gold to buy stuff.

M&B has always been the best game to mod mainly because of it's combat system is so realistic and can be placed into many different RPG elements.

http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/board,178.0.html
http://78.46.65.211/crpgsite/new/index.php

This game takes the combat for Fantasy games to the next level, play it, read up on it, then come back. Best 30$ I have ever spent in my life.

*Skipped the 2nd page due to extreme trolling

[kliffoth]

Originally Posted by DaveTs

You are so pedant dude, have you even tried to code a game? Have you even triend to understand the differences between an Mp game and an MMO? Dude you are talking shit (sorry about that) and you are showing us a lot of ignorance. MO has a crappy combat system and isn't due to the fact that MO is an MMO, no sir. Is because the system itself it's crappy. Why have they tried to create a new innovator combat system? why instead of it, don't they take a working (and a great one) and put it into MO?
There are a lot of possibles combat system that will work in an MMO and they have choosen the wrong option, adapting an existing combat system will be better for the game because the current system isn't working, is not skill based, is not fun, is not fluid, is not intuitive, is a bad choice.
I won't talk about archery because archery is the worst system in the game...

Greetings.

One of the main 'problem' of MO is that the hitting boxes don't correspond to the bodys' shapes, and weapons damaging areas don't correspond really to the weapons' shape/type. That thing is possible in 'real' fps games like M&B or Dark Messiah od Might and Magic. Thus MO is not really based on your combat skills. You can see this when trying to avoid being hit strafing left or right, when you get hit even when out of enemy's weapons range. Talking about archery is the same, where in other fps games projectiles are real objects, doesn't seem to be in MO, since it only depends on how you aimed before releasing the arrow, and you can see it when you notice that the enemy is being hit even before the animation of the arrow landing on its body.

From one side you have 'real' FPS games like M&B, on the other side you have MMOs 'automated' systems, MO is just in the middle. That's the lack of the combat system in MO that some are complaining about to my opinion.
In MO you just have to trigger your blow, and that's a bit better than other MMOs, thus more immersive (and not only attacking somebody and wait for your char to hit automatically, like in UO or others).

[Frog]

Originally Posted by Henrik Nystrom

We seem to forget 2 important things, issues we had back in combat beta.
1. About 90% of our testers complained about running out of stam not being able to kill anyone fleeing. See in combat beta you build nothing and loose nothing you plaid it like a duel to death kinda way. So this wasnt noticed by everyone of the way of you fighting back there. But if you thought about chase someone and kill him, then just forget about it, you would never kill him as you would run out of stam with 1 swing when chasing someone.

Mounted Warriors didn't have this problem

Originally Posted by Henrik Nystrom

wtf happend

Honestly, this is how I feel now.

Originally Posted by Henrik Nystrom

I think we have a decent core to build from here

I think you had a decent core to build from then too, wtf happend

Originally Posted by Frog

don't give them any ideas, if u do they might buff the shit out of parrying before they fix melee damage

Originally Posted by Henrik Nystrom

Counter block attack which we are enabling in this next patch,

I think its safe to say the devs hate me.

Originally Posted by Henrik Nystrom

It's getting more and more complex and player skill driven to success.

I can't say I agree that it's becoming more player skill driven, actually its the opposite. I would often see the player not even facing me take a swing, then a second later I take the hit when they are wayyyy out of range. I can't see how player skill is even a factor in that situation.

Originally Posted by Henrik Nystrom

So like you can see, we got a few things to add before we discuss to totally rework the core if necessary.

Then why did you totally rework it since combat beta? This isn't what I tested at all, every little thing has been changed by a lot: damage, HP, hit detection, stamina, etc....

[ThaBadMan]

Ok first off, NO, NO, NO, MO combat should not be the same as M&B combat (although I love that game and have played it for countless of hours) MOs combat is more realistic, more brutal then M&Bs combat, and it should stay that way. I am not saying that it could take some parts of it, but not the same.

MOs combat is actually great and with a bit polishing and finishing it could be awesome, they need to do some small changes though, one is making blocking almost instant for better skill with the system, melee fighting is pretty good IMO, but they need to get rid of some warping and get the hitboxes and collisions smoother.

MOs archery should be a bit different though, like they should get rid of the crosshair so it seems more realistic and takes a bit more skill when aiming, and the arrows should not be instant but that should be more like M&Bs arrows i think.

The walking and felling when fighting is perfect i think.

And dont get me started about the magic system, keyword here is AIM BASED, yeah it should get aim based as fast as it can be, more like Oblivions magic or Dark Messiah of M&M. Theres not much more to say about the magic system until they get it aim based. Some parts like healing and stuff can stay target based but could also be aim based, spells like area effect should just come out of the magic user and expand a bit depending on his skill in that particular magic school or how they are doing that in the end.

But overall, they should keep the brutality and realistic feel of the MO combat but make it a tad a bit better. The only thing that is wrong with the combat right now is balancing i think, once they got that sorted they could try to change it a bit to make it more smooth.

Just my simple ideas

[Frog]

Originally Posted by ThaBadMan

MOs combat is more realistic

loled hard

[StackOfBeef]

Originally Posted by ThaBadMan

Ok first off, NO, NO, NO, MO combat should not be the same as M&B combat (although I love that game and have played it for countless of hours) MOs combat is more realistic, more brutal then M&Bs combat, and it should stay that way. I am not saying that it could take some parts of it, but not the same.

How mortal online is currently, its not more realistic then M&B. During close beta, how slow it was plus the stamina system, it was more realistic then M&B by default since M&B dont even have stamina.

MOs archery should be a bit different though, like they should get rid of the crosshair so it seems more realistic and takes a bit more skill when aiming, and the arrows should not be instant but that should be more like M&Bs arrows i think.

An FPS game without crosshair is not realistic at all because without crosshair, you hardly see the perfect middle of your miserable screen. In real life, when you hold a bow, your eyes is pointed directly to where your arrow will land. Even if they remove the crosshair, players like me will find a way to get a dot in the middle of our screen.

And dont get me started about the magic system, keyword here is AIM BASED, yeah it should get aim based as fast as it can be, more like Oblivions magic or Dark Messiah of M&M. Theres not much more to say about the magic system until they get it aim based. Some parts like healing and stuff can stay target based but could also be aim based, spells like area effect should just come out of the magic user and expand a bit depending on his skill in that particular magic school or how they are doing that in the end.

I totally agree with you. Magic how i see it is too easy mode. No way to dodge. Specially vs someone on a mount, he can chase you and mount vs mount and never miss teal you die. It remind of that stupid red dead redemption online chase on mount that i did last time vs a player. You simply auto aim and no chance for him to escape or leave because i have 0% chance to miss.

[Frog]

Originally Posted by StackOfBeef

How mortal online is currently, its not more realistic then M&B. During close beta, how slow it was plus the stamina system, it was more realistic then M&B by default since M&B dont even have stamina.

Agree.

Originally Posted by StackOfBeef

An FPS game without crosshair is not realistic at all because without crosshair, you hardly see the perfect middle of your miserable screen. In real life, when you hold a bow, your eyes is pointed directly to where your arrow will land. Even if they remove the crosshair, players like me will find a way to get a dot in the middle of our screen.

Piece of tape on your monitor? You better believe it.

Originally Posted by StackOfBeef

I totally agree with you. Magic how i see it is too easy mode. No way to dodge. Specially vs someone on a mount, he can chase you and mount vs mount and never miss teal you die. It remind of that stupid red dead redemption online chase on mount that i did last time vs a player. You simply auto aim and no chance for him to escape or leave because i have 0% chance to miss.

He can't chase you if your on a mount, he has to drop down to second gear to load a spell, which takes like 6 seconds. And as for chasing you on foot, any mounted player (warrior/archer/mage/whatever) can chase you.

I wouldn't mind having some aim-based offensive spells, but if they use the same epic trajectory system they use for archery I would mind. On a related note, your still not gonna have any chance to dodge with the client side hitboxes, try dodging an arrow it will take like 2 seconds before you even move on the other persons screen. I wouldn't want to see all of the spells become aim based cause then everone will just use whatever has the biggest splash, unless your knocked down then they will drop the "bolt" equivalents. I'd like to see spells more situational where mages are using a large variety of spells.

[ThaBadMan]

Well what i meant about more realistic is how you swing and general feel of combat, M&B combat is a little too softcore actually. M&B mounted combat is pretty badass though.

And i dont know why you would need a crosshair to be able to aim, im sorry to say but you gotta suck at aiming. Their initial stad on it was no crosshair, but they put it in because of all you whining bitches who cant aim without getting a pointer. Its really sad....

[StackOfBeef]

Originally Posted by ThaBadMan

Well what i meant about more realistic is how you swing and general feel of combat, M&B combat is a little too softcore actually. M&B mounted combat is pretty badass though.

And i dont know why you would need a crosshair to be able to aim, im sorry to say but you gotta suck at aiming. Their initial stad on it was no crosshair, but they put it in because of all you whining bitches who cant aim without getting a pointer. Its really sad....

Crosshair is in, period. If you are use to aim without crosshair, why do you even want the crosshair to be remove then? Make no sense at all. Its really horrible to try focusing our eyes to aim at the perfect middle of the screen to get a perfect shot. Its not realistic because in real life, we have a lot more stance to position our eyes to an object to aim perfectly. That perfect aim, we cannot have that in a game without crosshair by trying to look at the perfect middle of the miserable sreen.

At the end, players would just add a dot in the middle of the screen and be advantaged over legit players.