What Combat Should look like (Video)

[djclew504]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqgjw4EvbHog
FFA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2GCw...eature=related
GUild vs Guild
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKX3JeHyzxw
Archery
I Know the unreal engine can do these things?
Why arnt you? There system is so dynamic and engaging yet realistic.
For those of you who dont know game in video is Mount and Blade WArband.
A First Person Slasher. Made by a smaller 3rd party developer, you can buy it with a steam account.

IMO, this is the "direction" the combat needs to head.

[-TYRANT-]

If that's what you think combat should look like, why don't you just play that game?

[djclew504]

Originally Posted by -TYRANT-

If that's what you think combat should look like, why don't you just play that game?

Because i love mortal and am just looking to give the devs some ideas for the current state of the combat system. Cause its bad. lol IMO. dont get mad myrm flamer.

[GaraP]

Aye, we all know M&B's combat is awesome, but i guess it's kinda different applying it to a mmo like Mortal, I dunno, I'm no programmer, just spitting some thoughts here.

[-TYRANT-]

Originally Posted by djclew504

Because i love mortal and am just looking to give the devs some ideas for the current state of the combat system. Cause its bad. lol IMO. dont get mad myrm flamer.

Either I'm mad, or you're just sensitive, and I definetly don't feel mad.


edit: on topic though, I think SV could do better than M&B, the solution to making MO combat better doesn't lie in ripping off another game. They can/should be inspired by better combat systems(as in more than one) but to say they should be exactly like another game is kinda stupid.

[djclew504]

Originally Posted by -TYRANT-

Either I'm mad, or you're just sensitive, and I definetly don't feel mad.


edit: on topic though, I think SV could do better than M&B, the solution to making MO combat better doesn't lie in ripping off another game. They can/should be inspired by better combat systems(as in more than one) but to say they should be exactly like another game is kinda stupid.

if you read op i did not say they should copy m&b i said this is the "direction" they should heead in. read the post before you comment please.

[BigStackOfBeef]

1st, to be done that way, i think there should be a timer when you enter combat stance. To me, it make no sence to see a fighter getting unarmed in a middle of the fight only to regen stamina faster once. Also, sprinting in combat stance while strafing should be added to add more twitch skill into the gameplay.

[-TYRANT-]

Originally Posted by BigStackOfBeef

1st, to be done that way, i think there should be a timer when you enter combat stance. To me, it make no sence to see a fighter getting unarmed in a middle of the fight only to regen stamina faster once. Also, sprinting in combat stance while strafing should be added to add more twitch skill into the gameplay.

sprint strafing...are you serious?

[Tanais]

Theres Myrm to troll more

[-TYRANT-]

Originally Posted by Tanais

Theres Myrm to troll more

Ok, so I'm assuming you think allowing players to sprint sideways is a good idea? Please explain, thanks.

[sCouraGe]

I agree with the OP.

If they had M&B styled melee and archery then added the weapons/armor and skills form MO it would be much better.

The 'feel' of M&B combat is just better. The way you control your character is better and the directional attacks feel more natural.

Originally Posted by BigStackOfBeef

Also, sprinting in combat stance while strafing should be added to add more twitch skill into the gameplay.

Twitch does not = skill. Making everything too twitch based is just lazy and a copout to make people think its skill based. Skill should be about knowing how to play the game, not having quicker wrists IRL.

[Bevo]

I would think M&B wouldn't work for an MMO. I mean the combat is great and all, but how would that work on a big ass server like MO?

Maybe if the game was more like APB where everything was instanced and set on small mapped battlefields of 30-60 people and all of that. But then it just wouldn't be MO anymore and would be some crap instanced game with kick ass combat.

[DaveTs]

Bevo what do you understand by MMO? Coz there are servers with more than 200 people and the combat works fine...

@OP: Another good combat system will be this one (for melee) M&B archery for me is the best...

Greetings

[Frog]

Originally Posted by djclew504

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqgjw4EvbHog
FFA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2GCw...eature=related
GUild vs Guild
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKX3JeHyzxw
Archery
I Know the unreal engine can do these things?
Why arnt you? There system is so dynamic and engaging yet realistic.
For those of you who dont know game in video is Mount and Blade WArband.
A First Person Slasher. Made by a smaller 3rd party developer, you can buy it with a steam account.

IMO, this is the "direction" the combat needs to head.

don't give them any ideas, if u do they might buff the shit out of parrying before they fix melee damage

[Bevo]

Originally Posted by DaveTs

Bevo what do you understand by MMO? Coz there are servers with more than 200 people and the combat works fine...

Um what?

The multiplayer doesn't use caped instanced maps for the battles? Even in the single player it has that. Although it has been a long time since I have played that game, I guess it could have been changed. But I am going to call BS until told otherwise. If there aren't capped instanced maps then I'd be happy to admit I am wrong and say that every game that is out right now is a pile of shit compared to that game, and wonder why it hasn't already knocked of WOW as the most popular MMO out there.

[DaveTs]

There are servers with 222 player max. And there is a new mod called Persistan World Mod that allows to play in a huge map, always limited to the editor but is a first step...
Before talking, try to learn a little about the games which are talking about.

Greetings.

[Bevo]

Originally Posted by DaveTs

There are servers with 222 player max. And there is a new mod called Persistan World Mod that allows to play in a huge map, always limited to the editor but is a first step...
Before talking, try to learn a little about the games which are talking about.

Greetings.

You didn't answer my question at all. Dodge more?

Another question that you will probably also dodge. Is the server even persistent?

Edit: And why would I go and bother to do a crap load of reading for someone who won't even bother reading my small and very simple post?

[Wulfbane]

looks like an awesome game.. gonna try it out..

[Sebastian Persson]

Thanks! Now I can just copy-paste the combat-code directly from the YouTube video!
JK...
Yes the melee-combat still needs balance/work, but comparing it to a non-mmo will never be fair I'm afraid.
M&B is an awesome game and there's a lot we can learn from those guys, they have really tried to push the standard on how melee-combat should work and come up with something spectacular.

[Hodo]

Originally Posted by -TYRANT-

sprint strafing...are you serious?

Oddly enough I agree with Tyrant on this statement.

And to the OP.

No to the M&B archery. I like MO's archery now, it just needs some refinement. And no I dont play a thusar/Khurite uberman. I do think that combat needs to be a bit slower like M&B. The directional controls in that are simple and fluid enough to work.

[Hodo]

Originally Posted by Bevo

You didn't answer my question at all. Dodge more?

Another question that you will probably also dodge. Is the server even persistent?

Edit: And why would I go and bother to do a crap load of reading for someone who won't even bother reading my small and very simple post?

Perhaps because you didnt type it in ESPANOL.

[DaveTs]

Dunno what's espaNol.

Bevo, of course the maps are instanced, of course the map are not persistent due to the limitations of the engine (is not mmo oriented, not yet), but what i'm trying to say or to show you is, this combat system works in a massive multiplayer situation, why not try it in MO. The current combat system is a fucking crap..., why not trying to evolve?? What's wrong with that?

Greetings.

[Bevo]

Originally Posted by DaveTs

Bevo, of course the maps are instanced, of course the map are not persistent due to the limitations of the engine (is not mmo oriented, not yet)

The limitations don't stay the same when you implement something like that into a MMO oriented designed game vs a single player designed game with some multiplayer tacked on. They are two totally different worlds. Maybe to some players they seem the same but I assure you to those running the servers and doing the coding it isn't the same. That is why I use APB as an example of how it might work IN MY FIRST DAMN POST that you failed to read. Another example is how I believe CCP is designing Dust 514 (although that will be a console based MMO). Designed like that, it might work, but that is a completely different type of MMO than how MO was designed. Night and day. It goes against just about all of the core aspects of what the design team said they wanted when they sat down to build MO.

I love how all the time all of you guys bring up all of these single player games say "If only [XXX MMO] would do it like [XXX Single player game] !!! How fail are all MMO for not being able to make their MMO run like every single player game." If you go and look at the old trailer for MO or if you look at some of the old screenshot of MO from when MO was in Alpha, it looks fucking amazing! You know why? That was basically a single player game back then.

Yes Warband has a multiplayer, and here I am answering your question. NO THAT IS NOT AN MMO. That is a multiplayer part to a single player game. Not an MMO. Nothing about Warband is MMO. Not even close. And it is not going to be. At least not in its current version it never will be. And when you answered my questions you said why.

[DaveTs]

You are so pedant dude, have you even tried to code a game? Have you even triend to understand the differences between an Mp game and an MMO? Dude you are talking shit (sorry about that) and you are showing us a lot of ignorance. MO has a crappy combat system and isn't due to the fact that MO is an MMO, no sir. Is because the system itself it's crappy. Why have they tried to create a new innovator combat system? why instead of it, don't they take a working (and a great one) and put it into MO?
There are a lot of possibles combat system that will work in an MMO and they have choosen the wrong option, adapting an existing combat system will be better for the game because the current system isn't working, is not skill based, is not fun, is not fluid, is not intuitive, is a bad choice.
I won't talk about archery because archery is the worst system in the game...

Greetings.

[Bevo]

In Warband why do you think they have simplified M&B so much? Why in the MP part have they removed so much of well... everything and left just the combat? The skill system, and all of that. Even in the SP version a lot of the RPG elements have been removed from M&B. Because all of that stuff effects the combat. It all has to be number crunched. You go and take those number and multiply it out by thousands of people then add on top of it a skill system, and the thousands of different types of weapons and aromor that are in MO and it just doesn't work. There is just to much.

Are you suggesting getting rid of the crafting part of MO? Get rid of the economic part of MO? Make it a pure combat type game where everyone chooses their basic armor, and then implement instances that limit you to X amount of players for each time you want to get into combat? And then on top of that you still need to make it persistent, so there is again more number crunching and a lowering of that X amount of players for each instanced map for that combat.

[kelendil]

The main difference between the 2 type of games is the presence of a DB and the overhead occured when you try to query it.

[DaveTs]

Bevo you understand what you want, forget it. Devs leave the game as it is now!!!! Don't change it and it will success!!!

DaveTs off...

[Bevo]

Originally Posted by DaveTs

Bevo you understand what you want, forget it. Devs leave the game as it is now!!!! Don't change it and it will success!!!

DaveTs off...

No where have I said MO doesn't have it problems. It has tons of them. Many are with the combat system. My problem with what you are saying is that you want to implement something that doesn't work in a MMO environment into an MMO.

You keep saying that there is the game "Warband" that has made it work by removing any RPG aspects, any skill systems, and all kind of other things needed in an MMO (and in MO) and then put that combat on servers of 100-200 people and put a few of those people in instanced small maps with cookie cutter gear and weapons to fight using this great combat system.

I agree your combat system is great. I agree MO's isn't as good. But I am telling you, you are out of your mind if you think that one will work in MO with out having MO get ride of basicly EVERY OTHER CORE FEATURE OF THE GAME outside of "there is combat."

[madsholme]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Persson

Thanks! Now I can just copy-paste the combat-code directly from the YouTube video!
JK...
Yes the melee-combat still needs balance/work, but comparing it to a non-mmo will never be fair I'm afraid.
M&B is an awesome game and there's a lot we can learn from those guys, they have really tried to push the standard on how melee-combat should work and come up with something spectacular.

how about you reply all those threads asking what your plan and idea is? since you change everything from beta, where the combat was more slow, and used more stam, there are a LOT of people who would prefere that, instead of this system we got now.

so please do answer these:
1: are u gonna stick to the system now
2: are u gonna go back to how it was in beta few hits = dead
3: what is your aim towards combat? that is teh goal..

caus all the stuff matt said about slow realistic combat was thrown away when the game whent live, even thought the combat in beta was WAY better than we have now! So please answer, instead of keeping doding the bullet on this one!

[marioch666]

Originally Posted by madsholme

how about you reply all those threads asking what your plan and idea is? since you change everything from beta, where the combat was more slow, and used more stam, there are a LOT of people who would prefere that, instead of this system we got now.

so please do answer these:
1: are u gonna stick to the system now
2: are u gonna go back to how it was in beta few hits = dead
3: what is your aim towards combat? that is teh goal..

caus all the stuff matt said about slow realistic combat was thrown away when the game whent live, even thought the combat in beta was WAY better than we have now! So please answer, instead of keeping doding the bullet on this one!

I think "Yes the melee-combat still needs balance/work" does answer that.

[Artemis-x-]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Persson

Thanks! Now I can just copy-paste the combat-code directly from the YouTube video!
JK...
Yes the melee-combat still needs balance/work, but comparing it to a non-mmo will never be fair I'm afraid.
M&B is an awesome game and there's a lot we can learn from those guys, they have really tried to push the standard on how melee-combat should work and come up with something spectacular.

could we compare with AoC instead? some of that has some extremely fluid and well done combat. its an MMO too...it does have ALOT of Mocap stuff for the animations and a rediculous number of them too. sometimes its just the animation itself not the mechanics behind it that help.

[Azarahthehunter]

Im not liking the M&B combat. I think something like age of chivalry would fit much better in MO.

[DaveTs]

Azara M&B combat is skill based. AoC for me is as crappy as MO combat...
In a combat like M&B people with 200 ping can fight against people with 40 ping and still be challenging.... Combats like AoC or MO are spam fests with the difference that in MO if you wear better armor you will win...

[NorthBlade]

What you people dont get is that each animation has to be coded with the network engine. it s not a simple : send this to the server/ broadcast it to the client. each blending animation ( usually 2 to 3 animations are blended together ), has to be send properly then broadcast by the autoritative server. so let say the combat takes 60 animations, sometimes blended together, sometimes not : can you imagine the necessary bandwith and hardware power for this applied to an MMO ? i guess not... ( even the manpower to code this would be... a lot... ). Not to the mention the numbers of weapon / armors / swing style / ect.. There is a reason why all previous MMOs have the simple : press1 /wait for attack / look at the big numbers / try again.

Also, each time you add a simple feature like : block left or block right : your memory usage ( Client side ) jump a lot, not just a 10k/o... Add this to all the other features of an MMO, and the minimum requirement will be 6 gigs of ram... That s why we have ONE block in MO, not 3. And 2 attack, instead of 4.

in other words... having a dedicated server managing 64 players is a thing, having a network infra managing 30 clusters, where each cluster dynammically changes depending on the request : it s an other thing. If you want the melee combat from warband into an MMO : your customers will have to get a 3000 $ computer to play it. I think a game can be fun, without that in....Also, you'd better have a 40 $ /month subscription or you ll never be able to pay for this huge network infra...

Edit : But i do agree the actual fight system in MO is not even close what it should be ( mostly becauseof the stamina/weight balance and the useless weapons/materials. Unless you are using a silk weapon... you should not have to swing 10 times to the head to kill someone. i say multiply the damages and the stamina drain by at least 3.)

[Azarahthehunter]

Originally Posted by DaveTs

Azara M&B combat is skill based. AoC for me is as crappy as MO combat...
In a combat like M&B people with 200 ping can fight against people with 40 ping and still be challenging.... Combats like AoC or MO are spam fests with the difference that in MO if you wear better armor you will win...

Challenging? How? You attack the other guy blocks, then he attacks then you block... it goes like this until some1 dies. Well it would be awesome if they added a bit more speed. I dunno.. I just dont like the animations, effects and almost everything other than the mounted archery in M&B.

[DaveTs]

If your combat in Wb is limited to hit, then being hitted and star again with the loop, you should train a lot more, there are great combats in Wb. I'm in a group of Wb and our fights are great, but lets forget about Wb, Northblade nailed has given to us a lot of arguments of why Wb combat could not work on MO.
Lets try with another one, what about Dark Messiah combat, it's great, its challenging and of course it's very, very eyecandy.

Greetings.

[-TYRANT-]

SV can't rip-off another games combat system, so what's the point in saying it should be just like anything else? Why not give the devs suggestions on how to make THEIR combat system better that are within the possibilities of an MMO.

[DaveTs]

Hodo dude, i you have a cock in your ass it doesn't mean that everyone has to be like you. I'm not english but if you are.., it seems your understanding is worst than mine...
Move alogn and let the mature people discuss like mature peoples..., go to play with your toys child...

[Hodo]

Originally Posted by DaveTs

Hodo dude, i you have a cock in your ass it doesn't mean that everyone has to be like you. I'm not english but if you are.., it seems your understanding is worst than mine...
Move alogn and let the mature people discuss like mature peoples..., go to play with your toys child...

I am pretty sure I could babblefish english to spanish and come up with a better translation than what you just typed. You dont want to play that "mature" card with me. Cause son, I most likely seen stuff in my 30+ years that would turn your stomach and give you nightmares.

Perhaps we arent understanding each other. Perhaps your just so full of shit that your eyes are brown. But your to busy trying to act cool and know everything about MMO combat to bother to read my post. Instead you want to get all butt hurt over the fact that I said "Perhaps you have a cock up your ass." If that offended you, GET OVER IT!

[JimyTheHand]

lol can you imagine the lag involved if this was MO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDq_E...eature=related