Magic is not Alchemy and vice versa

[d3moplay]

I understand the conditionality of magic system in PC games, but I would also like to see Magic System in Mortal Online as clean and accurate I would even say as original as possible. Currently the magic system is more like alchemist activity - bottles, substances, extracting and experiments.

Magic in its essence is playing with Information and Energy. Therefore, in game theory, mana pool is energy source that provides spell casting through the knowledge (information) to make different kind of impact on physical world. Nice. But that in theory.

How to ensure the magic system work “right” within Mortal Online and to be “fair” to other classes' expenses, since mana restoration is nothing other than Rest or Meditation, which in turn is free of charge?

Here I would like to encourage community to discuss on the subject. What do you think? Maybe together we can manage to create a Vision for clean and believable magic system in Mortal Online.

[Lerdoc]

I think current system is fine and you just struggle to afford reagents.

We had magic without reagents and we all know how it was back then.

[Daveraa]

I am still waiting for a really nice low magic setting for an MMO. I'm sick and tired of all the pew pew magic in MMOs.

Magic should be rare and primarily utilitarian not direct damage.

But given that is not going to be the case for MO I honestly don't think it matters how you "charge" them for using magic, reagents, bought mana pots, expensive robes o staffs. Whatever, its all just a means of trading time for pew pew powers. The important thing is balance and the limitation of the hybrid. Also keeping the mixing of different schools from creating OP combinations. Basically you should have to choose to be a pew pew mage or a utility mage and not be allowed to do both. Either that or the pew pew needs to be very weak or the utility not very useful :P

[Brandon Greymoor]

I don't understand why magic should be weak Daveraa, why can it not be just as viable as meele?

[Daveraa]

Originally Posted by Brandon Greymoor

I don't understand why magic should be weak Daveraa, why can it not be just as viable as meele?

Depends on what your asking me. In my "perfect" MMO magic wouldn't be weak it just wouldn't be a combat skill. It would be rare and more akin to what you see in Lord of the Rings (The books not the movies or MMO) or old Arthurian tales. Magic from real world myth rather than D&D inspired stuff.

But as for Mortal, Well if your going to have combat magic then fine it should be as viable an option in combat as melee or archery. The problem comes with when you want to add utility magic because then suddenly you have all the benefits of the same level of combat effectiveness as non-mages but at the same time gain access to all sorts of cool and useful utility spells and powers. This is why I say you either have weak combat magic or weak utility magic or you build the system such that a mage cannot do both.

[Katana622]

Originally Posted by Daveraa

Depends on what your asking me. In my "perfect" MMO magic wouldn't be weak it just wouldn't be a combat skill. It would be rare and more akin to what you see in Lord of the Rings (The books not the movies or MMO) or old Arthurian tales. Magic from real world myth rather than D&D inspired stuff.

But as for Mortal, Well if your going to have combat magic then fine it should be as viable an option in combat as melee or archery. The problem comes with when you want to add utility magic because then suddenly you have all the benefits of the same level of combat effectiveness as non-mages but at the same time gain access to all sorts of cool and useful utility spells and powers. This is why I say you either have weak combat magic or weak utility magic or you build the system such that a mage cannot do both.

They will make it so that you have to spec down a magic school. You probably won't be able to max out combat magic and another school, maybe half combat magic half other school. They wont just add new spells, you will have to learn new skills to gain new spells.

[Guttersnipe]

Originally Posted by Daveraa

I'm sick and tired of all the pew pew magic...
Magic should be rare and primarily utilitarian not direct damage.

Same here. I actually wish magery was disabled instead of thievery. Magery used for blessig people and objects, casting hexes that disable in some form for a period of time, weather/elemental control (creating fog for example), summonong, etc., all seems cooler than combat magic and much more complex as it should be. But we have combat magic and the implementation isn't too flashy which is cool. At least there aren't lasers and lightning bolts flying all over the place.

With the current system and new schools coming though I disagree that mages should be forced into a single type. Goes against the fundamental idea of being able to learn whatever and build your character however you wish.

[kio1992]

There is no such thing as magic.

Normal Humans use less than 10% of there brains.

Magic Humans use 100% of there brains, they can force molecules in the air to vibrate until it heats up creating fire.

they can then throw this fire at enemies, hence fireball.

It is all science, used on a high level on which normal humans cannot comprehend.

yeah.

[Daveraa]

Originally Posted by kio1992

Normal Humans use less than 10% of there brains.

Actually that particular "pop-fact" has been discredited for some time now.

[fariic]

Originally Posted by Lerdoc

I think current system is fine and you just struggle to afford reagents.

We had magic without reagents and we all know how it was back then.

Better?

Originally Posted by kio1992

There is no such thing as magic.

Normal Humans use less than 10% of there brains.

Magic Humans use 100% of there brains, they can force molecules in the air to vibrate until it heats up creating fire.

they can then throw this fire at enemies, hence fireball.

It is all science, used on a high level on which normal humans cannot comprehend.

yeah.

That's a myth. We we most of our brain. We just don't know how most of thenparts we use work.

[kio1992]

Mythbusters! i call upon you!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1E4Y...eature=related

[fariic]

Originally Posted by kio1992

Mythbusters! i call upon you!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1E4Y...eature=related

Dunno what myth busters has to say.
There was something my girl was watching the other day, and they were talking about exactly this.

Ps: it was actual doctors talking about it.

[kio1992]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duy0m...eature=related

[slowfly]

Good thing in magic is: It's not a "real" thing. So there's no true or false implementation of a magic system, is there?

I would even say as original as possible

That's imo a bad idea. Why do something again which has been done in every RPG? Cloning stuff is easy. Well, doing it better is hard - but it's still the same. Something which has never or rarely been seen in a game is much better for the whole game itself. Of course there are things which are just fun in every rpg and I wouldn't mind to see such things in MO as well, but I prefer innovations in a game.

But I agree about the naming: It's more alchemy than magic ;P

[chghes1]

Someone watched "sorcerer's apprentice" recently.

[Guttersnipe]

Originally Posted by fariic

We we most of our brain.

Ummm, yes?

Gotta love typos. Sorry to pull that one out but it cracked me up. I usually browse this forum from an iTouch so have a lot of tardisms through their auto correction.

Pre-Renaissance though science and sorcery/witchcraft went hand and hand, especially alchemy. Flash powders, explosions, and other such chemical reactions were thought by the majority of the uneducated, supersticious populace to be "magic." It makes sense to me to fuse fantasy magic and alchemy for game purposes due to the higher intelligence stat requirement. I hope to see a lot more chemistry fused with the magery in MO. In essence creating more powers/skills that aren't necessarily a result of tapping into or manipulating spectral planes. That combined with dark sorcery like being to temporarily pull demonic beings from the etherworld (when they're implemented) into the physical world might be a win for MO magic in my opinion.

[RedGekko]

Originally Posted by d3moplay

I understand the conditionality of magic system in PC games, but I would also like to see Magic System in Mortal Online as clean and accurate I would even say as original as possible. Currently the magic system is more like alchemist activity - bottles, substances, extracting and experiments.

<snip>

I'd imagine it would be possible to be an alchemist without being a mage, but I'd doubt that you could be a mage without dabbling in alchemy as well.

Classically, the two activities go together. Unless you subscribe to the theory that magic is totally independant of reagents, which is an entirely valid premise, but would make it very hard to "balance" in the MO game design.

[chghes1]

Originally Posted by Guttersnipe

I hope to see a lot more chemistry fused with the magery in MO. In essence creating more powers/skills that aren't necessarily a result of tapping into or manipulating spectral planes. That combined with dark sorcery like being to temporarily pull demonic beings from the etherworld (when they're implemented) into the physical world might be a win for MO magic in my opinion.

Some great ideas you have. I would really like to see this game have a little Haitian Vodoun flavor added to the magick skill set. I like the idea of using regents for magick skills in game as-well.

[Guttersnipe]

Originally Posted by chghes1

I would really like to see this game have a little Haitian Vodoun flavor added to the magick skill set.

Same here. Perhaps when the Sidioan continent is added?

[metavision]

Originally Posted by d3moplay

I understand the conditionality of magic system in PC games, but I would also like to see Magic System in Mortal Online as clean and accurate I would even say as original as possible. Currently the magic system is more like alchemist activity - bottles, substances, extracting and experiments.

Magic in its essence is playing with Information and Energy. Therefore, in game theory, mana pool is energy source that provides spell casting through the knowledge (information) to make different kind of impact on physical world. Nice. But that in theory.

How to ensure the magic system work “right” within Mortal Online and to be “fair” to other classes' expenses, since mana restoration is nothing other than Rest or Meditation, which in turn is free of charge?

Here I would like to encourage community to discuss on the subject. What do you think? Maybe together we can manage to create a Vision for clean and believable magic system in Mortal Online.

I think StarVault has mentioned botany (poisons, ailments) and rare herbs in rare places, etc..

[Mark]

In theory, you could kill someone but pooping a vien in their brain or something else of the sort. It would be much more practical and efficient opposed to creating fire, and launching it, and doing it over and over until the pour soul dies. Of course the amount of nerdrage caused by would be insane, so they go with the typical "make this water and powder magically heal this douche" approach. Anything else would require complete re-innovation of the magic system and reinventing the way magic systems are done in a game, all while keeping it balanced. So don't get your hopes up.

[Guttersnipe]

By "pooping?"

[Enkido]

Originally Posted by d3moplay

I understand the conditionality of magic system in PC games, but I would also like to see Magic System in Mortal Online as clean and accurate I would even say as original as possible. Currently the magic system is more like alchemist activity - bottles, substances, extracting and experiments.

Magic in its essence is playing with Information and Energy. Therefore, in game theory, mana pool is energy source that provides spell casting through the knowledge (information) to make different kind of impact on physical world. Nice. But that in theory.

How to ensure the magic system work “right” within Mortal Online and to be “fair” to other classes' expenses, since mana restoration is nothing other than Rest or Meditation, which in turn is free of charge?

Here I would like to encourage community to discuss on the subject. What do you think? Maybe together we can manage to create a Vision for clean and believable magic system in Mortal Online.

I totally agree, despite my uo memories, a reagent based magic system is silly. I dont like it. All spells should be free, a few item /place / time based (human corpse, crystal, shrine, pentagram....). Reduce the damage / success chance (i dont care) and let them use a item (wand /staff) to amplify the result. The used item degrades over time (economy part) the mage itself is limited by his mana pool...

[deathshroud]

now i think reagents are so easy to get it makes having a mage nothing special, i think there should be a few high level magic circles that require extremely hard to get reagents to make playing a mage something special again

[Mats Persson]

Originally Posted by deathshroud

now i think reagents are so easy to get it makes having a mage nothing special, i think there should be a few high level magic circles that require extremely hard to get reagents to make playing a mage something special again

Oh, just you wait and see..

[Angarato]

i have no problem with magic being used for combat as long as they make it skillbased, aim based magic (make it cost less mana or up mana regen to compensate off course) and make them have to use combat mode like everyone else,

atm mages don't miss and they dont have any friendly fire issues, they can also cast from a mount(even tho it got nerfed) for free skillpoints wise while it costs archers and melee 100 skillpoints.

i have nothing against magic and would actually like to see it more oblivion wise (charge it up like you have to do now, and then instantly cast it like oblivion, aim based)

[Gilgalad1er]

Some sort of mage staff that allows (and obligates) mages to aim while casting might be good.

[Flintwick]

Originally Posted by Angarato

i have no problem with magic being used for combat as long as they make it skillbased, aim based magic (make it cost less mana or up mana regen to compensate off course) and make them have to use combat mode like everyone else,

atm mages don't miss and they dont have any friendly fire issues, they can also cast from a mount(even tho it got nerfed) for free skillpoints wise while it costs archers and melee 100 skillpoints.

i have nothing against magic and would actually like to see it more oblivion wise (charge it up like you have to do now, and then instantly cast it like oblivion, aim based)

You are aware that due to the LOS changes, mages do have to aim right? it is a pretty small reticule too, pretty hard to get it, and you cant cast until you do. It would actually be more mage friendly to have it do true aim casting, as the current system is rather tricky.

A agree that projectile based spells should have hit arcs, much like archery. As for AE spells, they will hit friendlies.

[Sampzky]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

Oh, just you wait and see..

Utility vendors are going to start selling buckets and we will have to all run down to the nearest river and harvest water for our basic spells. Then they will implement depletable resources for water, and all of the rivers will dry up. Eventually, the landscape will turn into Meduli type desert, and PvPers will no longer be fighting for gold and prosperity, but simple water.

Then you will have to employ Al Gore to fix the climate change, and last time I checked he was pretty expensive, so I am assuming we will be seeing an expansion being released in order to pay for such costs.

Thanks for the heads up.

[Lerdoc]

Originally Posted by Flintwick

You are aware that due to the LOS changes, mages do have to aim right? it is a pretty small reticule too, pretty hard to get it, and you cant cast until you do. It would actually be more mage friendly to have it do true aim casting, as the current system is rather tricky.

A agree that projectile based spells should have hit arcs, much like archery. As for AE spells, they will hit friendlies.

Don't argue with him about magic, all he does is covering ears and screaming his thing. I think that particular one should have never left DF as he got absolutely no f*king clue what mage skill means(prohint for Angarato-its not your ability to aim-for that you have CoD:MW2).

[roidanielsen]

Magic should not be inside of any game. It should be called Alchemy. Do you know how they got the first boom powder? Chinese alchemists searched for a forever youth powder, but they found the boom death powder, and the Europeans called it magic :P

[Lerdoc]

Originally Posted by roidanielsen

Magic should not be inside of any game. It should be called Alchemy. Do you know how they got the first boom powder? Chinese alchemists searched for a forever youth powder, but they found the boom death powder, and the Europeans called it magic :P

But since people make games and use imagination instead of solid physics laws of RL....

[roidanielsen]

Originally Posted by Lerdoc

But since people make games and use imagination instead of solid physics laws of RL....

What is this Imagination you speak of? O.o

[Mats Persson]

Originally Posted by d3moplay

Currently the magic system is more like alchemist activity - bottles, substances, extracting and experiments.

Currently, you have Ecumenical Spells, which are like ..common spells, and those need Reagents, yes. In part because they need to be balanced, but they are also closely tied to the lore. Please read on.

Magic in its essence is playing with Information and Energy. Therefore, in game theory, mana pool is energy source that provides spell casting through the knowledge (information) to make different kind of impact on physical world.

That may be true in general game theory, but not necessarily for MO. Let me quote:

Originally Posted by Guttersnipe

Pre-Renaissance though science and sorcery/witchcraft went hand and hand, especially alchemy. Flash powders, explosions, and other such chemical reactions were thought by the majority of the uneducated, supersticious populace to be "magic." It makes sense to me to fuse fantasy magic and alchemy for game purposes due to the higher intelligence stat requirement. I hope to see a lot more chemistry fused with the magery in MO. In essence creating more powers/skills that aren't necessarily a result of tapping into or manipulating spectral planes. That combined with dark sorcery like being to temporarily pull demonic beings from the etherworld (when they're implemented) into the physical world might be a win for MO magic in my opinion.

I agree with this, but there's more to it. When people think of magic (this also seems to be the case in "general game theory" as well as in a lot of fantasy literature) they tend to think of a "special power". Maybe like a "force" that works outside of the "boundaries" of the physical world. Conjuring up a ball of fire from nothing, would be a good example. Now, as nothing like this exist in our own world, this type of "force" must therefore be disconnected to the "real world", even in the fantasy game/book.

Magic in MO differs from this in a number of ways. I imagine that in a renaissance-ish society where music, math, physics, art, chemistry and so on are all intermixed (as opposed to being separate specialized fields), magic would be just another component. For instance there wouldn't be any "border" between magic and music, because magic would be a part of music, just like math is a part of music and vice versa.

The question is, is there even such a thing as "raw magic" (outside of magic theory), and if there is, what would be the use for it? You can isolate math, but it has no use, and it is only theoretical, until you actually apply it to another field, whether it's theoretical physics or dividing your corn field. There is no use for "raw math". Likewise, magic is not separated from the other fields - it's a component that is intertwined in everything else. In other words, magic is not breaking the laws of nature, it is a part of the laws of nature in MO.

Another example would be physics. You can isolate physics into a specialized field, that only deals with the laws of physics; but are those a set of rules that reality must obey, or are they what we can derive from the current state of reality? In MO, you could ask if the laws of nature where put there by the gods as a firmament for creation, or if the gods themselves had to adjust their creation to the laws of nature, bending and sometimes breaking them to get their will through? The same questions can be asked in regards to magic.

Practically this means that in our world, we are able to distinguish between the "magician" doing card tricks and "real magic", simply because there is no real magic. Any real magic in our would immediately stand out, and be a very isolated field, because we know that it's not possible to make a card disappear for real according to the laws of our nature. And we (and several authors) tend to take for granted that this must be the case in fantasy worlds as well.

Instead, imagine a world that has magic, where a small portion of it is always present even in everyday life. Science and theory is at another point than in our own age, partly due to the progress of civilization but maybe also partly due to the presence of magic. In this world there is no difference between a card trick and a "magic" card trick, at least not for the layman. And even for the expert in theoretical magic the difference is vague. One trick may deal with math, another with aether planes. Both are very real. Both have parts of magic in them.

We who stand on the outside may feel the compulsion to think that magic and aether planes are different from the "physical world" and "the laws of nature" in Nave, but that is because we compare it to our own world. However neither the layman nor the expert in Nave can say that or draw that conclusion, and if they did it would be wrong, because aether planes are very real, and the laws of nature are what they have always(?) been.

So the use of reagents are in a way, alchemy. The reagents are partly based on chemical reactions in our own world, but you can do other things with them than you can in our own world, as there is also "magic" in MO. However, do not fall into the trap of separating the two because one cannot really exist without at least a small portion of the other.

In "pure" alchemy, you will mix materials at your workbench with the aid of magic, but you won't fling or teleport the result onto another player. Likewise, there will be other magic that doesn't deal with alchemical reactions.

Now, if magic where to be separated into an isolated theoretical field in Nave (like math), what it really "is" and how it "works", I leave for you to find out.

[Lerdoc]

Originally Posted by roidanielsen

What is this Imagination you speak of? O.o

Durrrr

[Angarato]

Originally Posted by Lerdoc

Don't argue with him about magic, all he does is covering ears and screaming his thing. I think that particular one should have never left DF as he got absolutely no f*king clue what mage skill means(prohint for Angarato-its not your ability to aim-for that you have CoD:MW2).

never played DF sorry kiddo, what kind of "skill" is needed for magic in this game right now? aiming? the hitbox might be small but you can just spam the button till you get it, if you miss you dont lose your spell, mana or reagents so you can just keep trying till you get it.

no friendly fire, no combat mode, no mitigation by armor, i have max phsyche doesnt seem to do much, no losses on a misshit, stamina bar can be used for movement alone since you don't need stamina for damage.

mage vs mage fight might require some kind of "skill" but mage vs anything else is just a retarded thunderlash or fulmination spam, if you dont think so you must not be playing the game or play any kind of pvp involving mages right now.

also all the good mages i talked with agreed with me and actually want an aimed based system to make it more fun, this includes mages from my guild but also mages from enemy guilds like RUS that hate our guts still agree with me on aimed based magic.

[roidanielsen]

TY for the wall Mats. Almost a novel

[Lerdoc]

Originally Posted by Angarato

never played DF sorry kiddo, what kind of "skill" is needed for magic in this game right now? aiming? the hitbox might be small but you can just spam the button till you get it, if you miss you dont lose your spell, mana or reagents so you can just keep trying till you get it.

no friendly fire, no combat mode, no mitigation by armor, i have max phsyche doesnt seem to do much, no losses on a misshit, stamina bar can be used for movement alone since you don't need stamina for damage.

mage vs mage fight might require some kind of "skill" but mage vs anything else is just a retarded thunderlash or fulmination spam, if you dont think so you must not be playing the game or play any kind of pvp involving mages right now.

also all the good mages i talked with agreed with me and actually want an aimed based system to make it more fun, this includes mages from my guild but also mages from enemy guilds like RUS that hate our guts still agree with me on aimed based magic.

You are here for quite some time, you have been active in magic discussions during beta, you know the topics and reasons there, you can read them again as I will not come up with anything new because everything on the topic was already said.

Oh, and playing a melee char is actually easier then a mage as all you have to do is face your targets direction and mash that LMB holding ALT with your spear.

[Angarato]

Originally Posted by Lerdoc

You are here for quite some time, you have been active in magic discussions during beta, you know the topics and reasons there, you can read them again as I will not come up with anything new because everything on the topic was already said.

Oh, and playing a melee char is actually easier then a mage as all you have to do is face your targets direction and mash that LMB holding ALT with your spear.

[Guttersnipe]

Originally Posted by Lerdoc

Oh, and playing a melee char is actually easier then a mage as all you have to do is face your targets direction and mash that LMB holding ALT with your spear.

Fuck, that's all you have to do in melee? It's no wonder I die so often. I thought there was some kind of strategery involved.

Now if I could only get people to stop being jerks and quit moving while I attack them I could put this theory to test. Time to find some over-encumbered slag haulers.

About the LOS, just yesterday I was fighting a mage. Saw them starting to cast a spell (I think that's what they were doing, their hands were doing stuff and pretty lights appeared). I ran behind a big brownwood tree to break the LOS and a couple seconds later I was hit with the spell. That tree would've stopped an arrow for example, but the spell seemed to go through or around it.