Mark Items Acquired From Murder as Stolen Too!

[Manardicus]

Items taken from a murdered player should be marked as stolen. I'm tired of being ganked by guilds, having my mount killed and my items deleted, and then having a blue guild member go to a town and bank or sale that item with no consequences. If you are dealing with stolen goods, you should be red or grey for a certain amount of time too.

[Pakee]

Very nice idea, shouldnt be possible to just delete items taken from dead body for couple of minutes aswell.

[Lerdoc]

If you really believe you can rez, regear, find and kill your murderer in next 2 minutes...

For sure he will not be too afraid of gray flag.

[Manardicus]

Originally Posted by Lerdoc

If you really believe you can rez, regear, find and kill your murderer in next 2 minutes...

For sure he will not be too afraid of gray flag.

I know I'm not going to get my gear back, I just don't want to see them have a free pass into a guarded town with my goods.

[Lerdoc]

Originally Posted by Manardicus

I know I'm not going to get my gear back, I just don't want to see them have a free pass into a guarded town with my goods.

All it would do is to make them wait additional minute or two before doing so.
Full loot after all, I can understand stolen items, as you are still there, probably chasing bastard, but the moment you are bloody pulp the gear is not yours anymore unless you will be the first one to get to it after you rez.

[Paratus]

I'm not sure this would have much effect. The flag basically just turns anyone who receives the item, during it's duration (2 minutes?) criminal. However, looting a blue corpse at all makes you criminal too.

[RedGekko]

The flagging implications of taking loot from someone you have just killed are moot unless the "robbed" items retain their flag for a substantial time period, like say 30 minutes or so.

The current flagging mechanic for stolen items gives the thief a grey flag, sure, but more importantly, it prevents the goods from being instantly deleted, which is simply a griefing tactic.

In the case of flagging of "robbed" goods, it would prevent them being instantly deleted, and would cut down a bit on the "Hahaha, n00b, I killed you for fun AND deleted all your stuff, which is worthless junk to me anyway".

You could still kill the guy for fun, but you'd have to carry his stuff around in your backpack until the timer wears off, before you could PROPERLY grief him. Or if the goods are too heavy to carry (6000 saburra ?), you'd have to hang around the place where you killed him, waiting for the timer to run out. That means the victim can possibly get some friends together and come back for his loot, at least.

On the other hand, if you actually killed him for his stuff, having a 20 or 30 minute non-destruct timer would be irrelevant, given that you DON'T want to delete the items in any case.

[Paratus]

If the flag prevents the item from being deleted, then I'd be in support of items flagging when looted from a blue corpse, for sure.

[RedGekko]

Originally Posted by Paratus

If the flag prevents the item from being deleted, then I'd be in support of items flagging when looted from a blue corpse, for sure.

That's exactly what I'm getting at.

Flagging an already red player is irrelevant, and would probably be a mild annoyance for a blue "opportunist" murderer, who is going to be grey and hiding anyway.

But preventing the goods from being deleted for decent period of time changes the whole ballgame. And it should apply regardless of whether the victim was red, grey or blue.

[-TYRANT-]

Originally Posted by Manardicus

Items taken from a murdered player should be marked as stolen. I'm tired of being ganked by guilds, having my mount killed and my items deleted, and then having a blue guild member go to a town and bank or sale that item with no consequences. If you are dealing with stolen goods, you should be red or grey for a certain amount of time too.

But, they aren't stolen goods. You failed to defend yourself or escape, the person that won got your stuff, that should be the end of it.

[Dennis131]

Originally Posted by -TYRANT-

But, they aren't stolen goods. You failed to defend yourself or escape, the person that won got your stuff, that should be the end of it.

Couldnt the same be said about stolen goods?

You let some thief steal from you and you didnt type guards fast enough, the thief won and got the stuff he stole.

[Pancake Effct]

With your idea, would a blue looting a red count as stolen? I'm a blue myself, but just curious how that would work.

[Sebastian Persson]

Well that would make sense from a logic standpoint as well as from a gameplay point of view. Will discuss these ideas with the folks on Monday, it was actually something I was thinking about myself while building the system.

[ZzZGuy]

Originally Posted by Paratus

If the flag prevents the item from being deleted, then I'd be in support of items flagging when looted from a blue corpse, for sure.

This.

It's just griefing to burn everything you can't take with you. Give it a 2 to 5 minute timer to delete items looted from players, most reds won't stick around long enough but can if they really want to.

Power to the Pkers on selling their goods in towns though. But if SV really wants to punish PKers selling stolen items in blue towns, make it tied into thieving skill system some how.

Btw, if you are getting killed a lot rethink how/what you are doing.

[Hippias]

Originally Posted by Dennis131

Couldnt the same be said about stolen goods?

You let some thief steal from you and you didnt type guards fast enough, the thief won and got the stuff he stole.

no because when you steal, the person isnt dead.. and can attack to claim his item back..
When you die from pvping, you have really no chance to get your item back

why add this in because someone 'dont want to see his loot deleted'

when he was risking it while pvping.. It wasent his loot anymore after he died..

[Pancake Effct]

Originally Posted by -TYRANT-

But, they aren't stolen goods. You failed to defend yourself or escape, the person that won got your stuff, that should be the end of it.

To an extent. If I see a man that stole my car driving down the rode that I failed to catch during the night, I'm going to catch that mofo.

If I see a man with a bow I crafted, kind of the same story in this situation.

[-TYRANT-]

Originally Posted by Dennis131

Couldnt the same be said about stolen goods?

You let some thief steal from you and you didnt type guards fast enough, the thief won and got the stuff he stole.

Stealing and murdering are very different. The nature of stealing allows you to go after the individual that stole from you, you're not dead.

Being murdered is a completly different situation, once you're killed, you're out of the fight, you failed, it's over, you lost your stuff, it was not stolen.

Maybe trading with a grey or red individual should make you grey, but the items shouldn't be marked as stolen, it doesn't make sense.

[Paratus]

Originally Posted by -TYRANT-

Stealing and murdering are very different. The nature of stealing allows you to go after the individual that stole from you, you're not dead.

Being murdered is a completly different situation, once you're killed, you're out of the fight, you failed, it's over, you lost your stuff, it was not stolen.

Maybe trading with a grey or red individual should make you grey, but the items shouldn't be marked as stolen, it doesn't make sense.

If you were walking on the streets in Detroit, and tripped over one of the several murdered bodies usually lying about, searched it and stole the corpse's wallet.. you wouldn't consider that theft? The same applies if you killed the guy. You're still stealing his possessions in addition to killing him. They're still stolen, whether he's alive or not.

Makes sense to me and also works from a gameplay perspective.

[Dennis131]

Originally Posted by Hippias

no because when you steal, the person isnt dead.. and can attack to claim his item back..
When you die from pvping, you have really no chance to get your item back

why add this in because someone 'dont want to see his loot deleted'

when he was risking it while pvping.. It wasent his loot anymore after he died..

Originally Posted by -TYRANT-

Stealing and murdering are very different. The nature of stealing allows you to go after the individual that stole from you, you're not dead.

Being murdered is a completly different situation, once you're killed, you're out of the fight, you failed, it's over, you lost your stuff, it was not stolen.

Maybe trading with a grey or red individual should make you grey, but the items shouldn't be marked as stolen, it doesn't make sense.

These are pretty much the same posts, so I might aswell reply once;

I'm not even agreeing with the OP. I just think it would be nice to have a timer, so you cant destroy something you just looted, doesnt really make sense.

'' I'll take this wood --- Wait I dont need it, let me destroy it! ''

Why pick it up in the first place?

inb4 butthurt
inb4 qq
inb4 usuck
inb4 sensethismakesnone
inb4 'the other stuff I forgot'

[Cheith]

Originally Posted by -TYRANT-

Stealing and murdering are very different. The nature of stealing allows you to go after the individual that stole from you, you're not dead.

Being murdered is a completly different situation, once you're killed, you're out of the fight, you failed, it's over, you lost your stuff, it was not stolen.

Maybe trading with a grey or red individual should make you grey, but the items shouldn't be marked as stolen, it doesn't make sense.

I would have to agree with this. Flagging a thief's (and the thief) items is a game mechanic to allow you to get back at a thief who otherwise be blue and get your stuff back or would just insta bank it or insta give it to a blue colleague. It is an artificial mechanic to cope with the way thieving works.

Dead folks is different. If you are outside a town and get ganked/griefed/legitimately killed then tough luck (imho). You knew it might happen when you left town.

Cheers,
C.

[RedGekko]

Marking items as non-deletable for a limited period after the murder will cut down on mindless ganking and griefing to a certain extent, and that will be good for the game.

You've already killed the guy (and his horse, if he had one). He now has to go and find a priest, get rezzed and sit down for a while to get his health back. Whatever he was doing before he died is now effectively over, you've ruined his day already.

Now to add to the injury, you also want to be able to instanly delete all his loot and gear, because that will REALLY hurt him, eh ? And you want to be able to do that as well as get away quickly, just in case he can mount some kind of counter-attack.

You want his loot ? No problem, pick it up and take it with you.

A non-delete timer on the victims loot does not restrict your PVP opportunities in any way. You can still kill as many people (and horses) as you want. You just can't instantly delete their loot to piss them off.

The less griefing we have in MO, the more players we'll have. And if people think they at least have a CHANCE to get their loot back, the more "quality" PVP we'll actually have (and with better equipment). Sounds like an all-round win to me...

[-TYRANT-]

Originally Posted by RedGekko

Marking items as non-deletable for a limited period after the murder will cut down on mindless ganking and griefing to a certain extent, and that will be good for the game.

You've already killed the guy (and his horse, if he had one). He now has to go and find a priest, get rezzed and sit down for a while to get his health back. Whatever he was doing before he died is now effectively over, you've ruined his day already.

Now to add to the injury, you also want to be able to instanly delete all his loot and gear, because that will REALLY hurt him, eh ? And you want to be able to do that as well as get away quickly, just in case he can mount some kind of counter-attack.

You want his loot ? No problem, pick it up and take it with you.

A non-delete timer on the victims loot does not restrict your PVP opportunities in any way. You can still kill as many people (and horses) as you want. You just can't instantly delete their loot to piss them off.

The less griefing we have in MO, the more players we'll have. And if people think they at least have a CHANCE to get their loot back, the more "quality" PVP we'll actually have (and with better equipment). Sounds like an all-round win to me...

Honestly, we shouldn't be able to delete items as easily as we do now, anything that restricts this is good IMO.

[timber66]

/agree on timers for deleting loot. start a poll on it!

[Illuminus1985]

Make deleting loot only be possible in towns with special work tables

[Strates]

Bring (heavy?) tools or use a specific workbench to destroy (and salvage!) stuff. Easy as that. I wanna see you destroy a pile of rocks or a solid steel blade with your bare hands.

[RedGekko]

Originally Posted by Illuminus1985

Make deleting loot only be possible in towns with special work tables

Originally Posted by Strates

Bring (heavy?) tools or use a specific workbench to destroy (and salvage!) stuff. Easy as that. I wanna see you destroy a pile of rocks or a solid steel blade with your bare hands.

No and no...

I don't want the damn loot to be IMPOSSIBLE to destroy, just put a 15min non-destruct flag on it. It stays right where it falls, unless the killer decides to take it with him. This gives the killer the choice of taking things that are valuable to him, and leaving the rest behind.

This may even make it viable to have a professional player posse stationed in a city. Miner gets ganked, he can go to the posse and hire their services to recover his loot. They will most probably get quite a bit of work recovering stuff, and a lot of PVP in the proces.

Or else the killer can wait around for the owner to return, and kill him again !

Or the owner get's his sh1t together, quickly rustles up a small posse, and some REAL PVP ensues.

MO should be about difficult choices. You can't be a top mage AND a top melee. You can't be an all-round crafter, choose a trade. You can't take ALL the loot ALL the time, choose what you really want to take, and just leave the rest...

[TomBor]

I know this is a murder thread, but since thieves are on the subject as well...

You should be able to take back stolen items from a thief without killing him if the thief is revealed (i.e. gone from hidden criminal to grey) without any need of a thievery skill.

[SidCity]

Originally Posted by Hippias

no because when you steal, the person isnt dead.. and can attack to claim his item back..
When you die from pvping, you have really no chance to get your item back

why add this in because someone 'dont want to see his loot deleted'

when he was risking it while pvping.. It wasent his loot anymore after he died..

This.

[Strates]

Originally Posted by RedGekko

No and no...

I don't want the damn loot to be IMPOSSIBLE to destroy, just put a 15min non-destruct flag on it. It stays right where it falls, unless the killer decides to take it with him. This gives the killer the choice of taking things that are valuable to him, and leaving the rest behind.

This may even make it viable to have a professional player posse stationed in a city. Miner gets ganked, he can go to the posse and hire their services to recover his loot. They will most probably get quite a bit of work recovering stuff, and a lot of PVP in the proces.

Or else the killer can wait around for the owner to return, and kill him again !

Or the owner get's his sh1t together, quickly rustles up a small posse, and some REAL PVP ensues.

MO should be about difficult choices. You can't be a top mage AND a top melee. You can't be an all-round crafter, choose a trade. You can't take ALL the loot ALL the time, choose what you really want to take, and just leave the rest...

I do want armors and weapons to be impossible to be destroyed without proper tools and/or workbenches. I don't care about materials, though.

[Cheith]

We need drop, is the reality, and removal of the delete button.
Then there is an auto 15 minute timer on things being destroyed.
People also can make decisions of going after loot or the person if need be. Especially if drop can be done while mounted.
Cheers,
C.

[RedGekko]

Originally Posted by Cheith

We need drop, is the reality, and removal of the delete button.
Then there is an auto 15 minute timer on things being destroyed.
People also can make decisions of going after loot or the person if need be. Especially if drop can be done while mounted.
Cheers,
C.

The ability to "drop" things in the game world has it's own special problems.

There are those that will drop as many lootbags as possible in a player city (or at an animal spawn) just to see if they can lag out everyone else for laughs, or to slow them down so they can be ganked more easily.

If you can only get rid of items by dropping (not deleting), what colour will the flag be on the lootbag ?

Dropping a lootbag while being chased sounds like a good tactic, but will you really drop your valuable stuff if you still have a chance of getting away ? How many gankers will fall for that one ?

[fungos]

Originally Posted by Paratus

If the flag prevents the item from being deleted, then I'd be in support of items flagging when looted from a blue corpse, for sure.

This must be done to avoid transferring stolen items to "mules" (naked blues on horses) that go to city sell things. Transferring stolen items should flag the receiver.

About deleting, this should be done only in cities by the use o Trash Bin, what is so hard to understand that the current "delete" button on backpack is totally crap and stupid!?

Btw, trashbin can be craftable and place-able in houses too.

Originally Posted by RedGekko

I don't want the damn loot to be IMPOSSIBLE to destroy, just put a 15min non-destruct flag on it. It stays right where it falls, unless the killer decides to take it with him. This gives the killer the choice of taking things that are valuable to him, and leaving the rest behind.

This 15min non-destruct idea is stupid and is for the lazy players and mybe lazy.... developers? lol

[Gravvis]

Originally Posted by Sebastian Persson

Well that would make sense from a logic standpoint as well as from a gameplay point of view. Will discuss these ideas with the folks on Monday, it was actually something I was thinking about myself while building the system.

I hope you guys REALLY consider the ramifications here. You are essentially preventing us from owning the loot that we just earned. In some cases, that loot may be something I need to use right away (reagent) or perhaps a weapon I need to trade to a guildmate that ressed in the middle of the fight.

It seems to me, that going down this path starts to move the game from a true full loot game to a "kinda your loot" game. If I loot a ton of wool off someone farming, get into another fight and have to bail into a river to swim, I better be able to delete the wool if its too heavy for me to swim. Dying to some invisible "thou shalt not delete" timer is complete bullshit.

[Cheith]

Originally Posted by RedGekko

The ability to "drop" things in the game world has it's own special problems.

There are those that will drop as many lootbags as possible in a player city (or at an animal spawn) just to see if they can lag out everyone else for laughs, or to slow them down so they can be ganked more easily.

If you can only get rid of items by dropping (not deleting), what colour will the flag be on the lootbag ?

Dropping a lootbag while being chased sounds like a good tactic, but will you really drop your valuable stuff if you still have a chance of getting away ? How many gankers will fall for that one ?

While I understand what some players may do, you could always have a limit equal to the number of slots in someones back when it comes to dropping.

If you drop an item you are essentially giving it up. It would not be flagged and anyone at all can take it.
Cheers,
C.

[Narrat]

Originally Posted by Gravvis

I hope you guys REALLY consider the ramifications here. You are essentially preventing us from owning the loot that we just earned. In some cases, that loot may be something I need to use right away (reagent) or perhaps a weapon I need to trade to a guildmate that ressed in the middle of the fight.

It seems to me, that going down this path starts to move the game from a true full loot game to a "kinda your loot" game. If I loot a ton of wool off someone farming, get into another fight and have to bail into a river to swim, I better be able to delete the wool if its too heavy for me to swim. Dying to some invisible "thou shalt not delete" timer is complete bullshit.

As far as I can tell there's nothing stopping you from using stolen items, just banking/deleting them (I could be wrong, I still haven't managed to find anyone with 1 unit of anything, so no stealing for me).

I don't really see anything wrong with it... insta-banking after killing someone is the same thing as insta-banking after a theft... if you can't hold onto the loot for 2 minutes, you probably don't deserve it imo.

I might be overlooking something, but I don't see how this would negatively effect the big picture tbh.

[RedGekko]

Originally Posted by Gravvis

I hope you guys REALLY consider the ramifications here. You are essentially preventing us from owning the loot that we just earned. In some cases, that loot may be something I need to use right away (reagent) or perhaps a weapon I need to trade to a guildmate that ressed in the middle of the fight.

It seems to me, that going down this path starts to move the game from a true full loot game to a "kinda your loot" game. If I loot a ton of wool off someone farming, get into another fight and have to bail into a river to swim, I better be able to delete the wool if its too heavy for me to swim. Dying to some invisible "thou shalt not delete" timer is complete bullshit.

Nope, with the suggested changes it's still a full-loot game, it's just a full-loot game with more risk and tricky choices !

"If I loot a ton of wool off someone farming..." then, as you clearly point out, you are taking a RISK, because if you pick up the ALL the loot, you may get into a sticky situation later. The choice is yours, you can take it all, or take only some. What you can't do is just delete the loot out of spite.

You don't want the risk, but you still want all the benefits of a full-loot situation.

[madsholme]

I like this idea!

just for the record dropped items, shouldent be marked or anything, if you drop, you give up a item. But marking items taken from murders, would be a good thing in my opinion. Later on, mabye create some kind of black market features, where stolen goods and goods taken from a murder, could be sold? Mabye these items should always be marked, and have a small chance of being reconised by guards, and then mark the carrier as hidden criminal ?

[Strates]

Originally Posted by Gravvis

I hope you guys REALLY consider the ramifications here. You are essentially preventing us from owning the loot that we just earned. In some cases, that loot may be something I need to use right away (reagent) or perhaps a weapon I need to trade to a guildmate that ressed in the middle of the fight.

It seems to me, that going down this path starts to move the game from a true full loot game to a "kinda your loot" game. If I loot a ton of wool off someone farming, get into another fight and have to bail into a river to swim, I better be able to delete the wool if its too heavy for me to swim. Dying to some invisible "thou shalt not delete" timer is complete bullshit.

If you can still move with a ton of wool, something is wrong with the game.

But you perfectly outline the problem i have with an invisible timer. The fact aside that there is no in-character reason attached to being able to delete some things right away, and not being able to delete other things until a timer runs out, there will always be unexpected situtations where you have to adapt and lose weight. Make materials, ressources and consumeables destroyable AND dropable (with a simple three bags limitation per five minutes) and equipment dropable. To destroy or salvage equipment you need specific tools and or workbenches.

Loot from murders is loot gained through a crime. It should make the items hot for about five minutes. I don't care about blues banking the stuff afterwards, but i hate getting a murdercount when i hunt down and kill the transfer mules. Right now due to stupid mechanics it is close to impossible to be a blue protector properly. I have to manage murdercounts and always have some spare for the random noob-griefer that requires killing.

[RedGekko]

Originally Posted by madsholme

I like this idea!

just for the record dropped items, shouldent be marked or anything, if you drop, you give up a item. But marking items taken from murders, would be a good thing in my opinion. Later on, mabye create some kind of black market features, where stolen goods and goods taken from a murder, could be sold? Mabye these items should always be marked, and have a small chance of being reconised by guards, and then mark the carrier as hidden criminal ?

Now that's a brilliant idea

It would have no effect on Reds, because they never go into guardzones anyway, but it certainly adds an element of RISK for the Blue opportunist murderers and any Blue that benefits from buying goods gained through murder and robbery...

And it does not remove any choice from the game, simply adds to the choices you have to make.

Buy that cheap steal greatsword ? Yeah, real bargain, but I may go grey in a city at a really awkward moment... Hmmm.. risky business...

[Strates]

Sounds like a brilliant idea to have an item recognized by the guards and that makes you hidden criminal. Delusion at it's best.