Archery and Primary Attributes

[Illuminus1985]

For archery, is Strength the only important attribute (i heard it is)? Why is Dex not included? I thought I saw one of the devs talking about this once...about dex doing something eventually. Str being the only modifier is doesnt make sense.

[Pancake Effct]

Originally Posted by Illuminus1985

For archery, is Strength the only important attribute (i heard it is)? Why is Dex not included? I thought I saw one of the devs talking about this once...about dex doing something eventually. Str being the only modifier is doesnt make sense.

I've been told that dex determines how small the circle gets

[Midgardsorm]

Ever shot a Bow IRL?

STRG is most important
DEX too, but STRG is just so important that it overweights DEX.
Accuarcy comes from practise witch is Skillpoints ingame.

Thats my way to describe

[Faranox]

In real life strength determines the maximum draw weight of a bow you can use. Dexterity would determine your skill with it (aiming, hand positioning, etc).
So I don't know that Strength should be the most important thing.

[Mats Persson]

Originally Posted by Faranox

In real life strength determines the maximum draw weight of a bow you can use. Dexterity would determine your skill with it (aiming, hand positioning, etc).
So I don't know that Strength should be the most important thing.

There are several instances where player-skill kind of replaces features that would have been Dexterity-based if MO had been another game. This is because DEX is often rather naturally interchangeable with player-skill in action-based gaming. For instance aiming while taking distance and wind into account is something that is possible to let YOU do (and not your characters DEX), however drawing a bow or carrying 100kg is somewhat less intuitive to represent with player-skill.

That said, DEX will have effects on archery later on. Although it will never really help you to draw heavier bows.

[Fantastipotomus]

Originally Posted by Faranox

In real life strength determines the maximum draw weight of a bow you can use. Dexterity would determine your skill with it (aiming, hand positioning, etc).
So I don't know that Strength should be the most important thing.

I would say, if you are firing a bow with maybe a 50 lbs draw weight or less then Dexterity is probably more important than Strength but the more powerful your bow the more important Strength gets. I don't agree that Dex is your skill level, as you say. Your skill level is your skill level (Archery/Ranged Combat). Dex would mostly factor into how fluid your draw is, probably how smoothly you knock and hold the arrow to the string and your hand eye coordination. Important, but not nearly as important as the necessary ability of being able to pull back the string. Good luck killing anything but a deer that is moving or wearing armor with a 50 lbs pull bow.

I agree that Dex should factor. I also agree that Strength is more important. I'm sick of seeing a million Legolas clones in every high-fantasy game because "strength is for melee, dex is for ranged." Personally, depending on the weapon, I think melee takes significantly more dexterity than archery.

[Flintwick]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

There are several instances where player-skill kind of replaces features that would have been Dexterity-based if MO had been another game. This is because DEX is often rather naturally interchangeable with player-skill in action-based gaming. For instance aiming while taking distance and wind into account is something that is possible to let YOU do (and not your characters DEX), however drawing a bow or carrying 100kg is somewhat less intuitive to represent with player-skill.

That said, DEX will have effects on archery later on. Although it will never really help you to draw heavier bows.

I understand and mostly agree with this standpoint, however when shooting a bow, the accuracy does quite heavily depend on your dexterity over strength or other "intuitive" skills. Yes, anyone can aim a bow at a target, but whether the arrow goes exactly where you aim it depends on:

• The Grip (how you hold the bow affects a lot, too tight or with bad hand placement will affect the shot)
• The Draw (is your elbow at the right height, are you using your back/shoulders rather than arms)
• The reference point (do you draw the string to the same place every time?)
• The release (Do you release smoothly, snatch at the string, let your hand forward when releasing, pull it away from the face... etc)

None of these, except maybe the Draw, have anything to do with strength. Yes, you need strength to draw them (even my 65lb English longbow wears you out pretty quick), but there is much more to archery than drawing the string. Yes, I agree, player skill can be used to determine whether the player can aim at the right spot (taking wind/range etc into account), but how close the arrow comes to the mark they are aiming at should be much more reliant on character dexterity.

EDIT: and also skill points of course, but no matter how much you practice, if you are a clumsy bugger, you aren't gonna shoot straight

[Talime]

Originally Posted by Flintwick

I understand and mostly agree with this standpoint, however when shooting a bow, the accuracy does quite heavily depend on your dexterity over strength or other "intuitive" skills. Yes, anyone can aim a bow at a target, but whether the arrow goes exactly where you aim it depends on:

• The Grip (how you hold the bow affects a lot, too tight or with bad hand placement will affect the shot)
• The Draw (is your elbow at the right height, are you using your back/shoulders rather than arms)
• The reference point (do you draw the string to the same place every time?)
• The release (Do you release smoothly, snatch at the string, let your hand forward when releasing, pull it away from the face... etc)

None of these, except maybe the Draw, have anything to do with strength. Yes, you need strength to draw them (even my 65lb English longbow wears you out pretty quick), but there is much more to archery than drawing the string. Yes, I agree, player skill can be used to determine whether the player can aim at the right spot (taking wind/range etc into account), but how close the arrow comes to the mark they are aiming at should be much more reliant on character dexterity.

EDIT: and also skill points of course, but no matter how much you practice, if you are a clumsy bugger, you aren't gonna shoot straight

i have to agree with that, also i think dexterity could be more on par with strengh when dexterity increases the speed of the draw

so a high str character may use heavier bows that hit every 3sec for 80 damage, but a high dex character can use a bow that hit every 3sec for 40 damage BUT because of the high dexterity they can draw that bow every 1,5sec

this would lead in 2 different playstyls for an archer but with the same overall damage at the end of the day

it is dextery based how fast you can pull out an arrow from your quiver and hook it into the string , so it might be a realistic use for dex

[Fantastipotomus]

I still think you guys are using a typical fantasy mindset for how bows are really used. Strength is hardly merely a limiting factor (how strong of a bow you can use). It also determines how steady you will be able to pull the bowstring.

I guess it depends on how you define dexterity. In MO, dexterity seems to be a reflection of how nimble your hands and feet are. In a typical RPG game, Dexterity is often defined (incorrectly, imho) by what I would use the word "skill" for. Not merely a measure of how fleet and fluid one moves, but how precisely one does those things. Precision is a measure of skill, not dexterity. A guy can be smooth as silk and still suck ass with a bow. Granted, I agree that an oaf will probably suck with a bow, too. I'd take a well practiced oaf over a nimble greenhorn any day of the week, though. Of course, having more Dex will and should never hurt you...

I think, for game mechanics sake, archery should work as follows: Strength limits the draw weight of the bow, Dexterity effects the "downtime" between firings (for drawing arrows and knocking; as Talime suggested), Constitution/Strength effects how long the bow can be held and still remain accurate and Skill affects how "tight" the targeting reticule should be able to get.

Like I said in the first post, when you are talking about bows that can kill an armored man...Strength is more important than Dexterity. Remember, Dex is NOT how accurate you are. That is skill (character and/or player). Pulling the string:Strength. The speed and fluidity which you knock arrowsex. Accuracy, timing, how you hold the bow, reference points used, ability to lead the target, stance and even how you hold the string:Skill. Not Dex. Even using the right muscles, as you suggest Flint, is not Dex. It is Skill. So I can't agree that Dex is more important than Strength.

[hobbe55]

i think STR for certain bows. is what its about. you need x amount of str to hold certain weapons.