DF vs MO considering population

[Fantastipotomus]

Originally Posted by Damedius

Honestly this thread is like arguing who is the least retarded retard.

UO may have been a great game way back when man just discovered fire. However a few things have changed between now and then.

Ppl have voted with their dollars and the verdict is out. Nobody actually wants to play these games.

Don't get me wrong. Everybody likes to think that they are OMG so F..g HC. But as soon as 1 -3 hours of work is flushed down the drain in 2 minutes or less for solo players. Or 1 months worth of a guild's work is demolished within an hour. Ppl start sobering up.

For those of you who are seriously slow. It's the equivalent of working for a year in real life, going to the casino then playing the slot machines and blowing it all within a few days.

All you have to show for your efforts is saying " I iz really hardcorez. Go back to Wow carebearz."

Agreed. Oh God do I completely agree.

To be honest, as a UO veteran, if somebody copied UO exactly and slapped it in a very pretty 3d world....I'd play it. Maybe made combat aimed instead of targeted. That's sortof what I thought MO was going to be when I read about it being the "spiritual successor" to UO. Sorry, but its not. DF certainly isn't.

Frankly, neither is about PvE. UO, whatever the developers say, was "about PvE." The game was designed with the corny "Britannia" based PvE image completely in mind right down to the music while you switch to combat mode. PvP grew from the fantastic PvE world at large. You go out to hunt mobs and Bam! you come across people who want to roll you. PvP...from an age where PvP was pretty much excluded to Quake/Doom/Wolfenstein type FPS games or the fledgling Blizzard "battle.net" via Diablo (now look at that monster). Now PvE is the rarity but what all these big shot game producers don't quite get is that a MMORPG runs on its PvE. A large immersive world is the key ingredient in PvP. The more you "focus on PvP" the more out of focus PvP gets. It has to be in something to keep subs around. If I just wanna go out and kill something I'll play Age of Chiv or Mount and Blade: Warband. Frankly, both offer better PvP combat than MO or DFO without having to spend hours and hours grinding to get gear.

MO, at the height of closed beta, was nearly grindless. Skills gained fast, gear was gained fast. When you lost it you were able to live with your self. I can't imagine what the poor fuckers with Oghmium weapons and Cronite armor do when they die in combat. The gargantuan...colossal effort of attaining gear, even just a fucking set of bone plate that is worth a damn, makes MO into a grind fest.

People have accepted that sandbox=grind. Even in UO people accepted it. UO offered more than MO or DF in its age. Its age is over, I agree. People need not accept it, though. We are paying money for the game. We shouldn't need to spend hours and hours doing mundane things like chop at trees or rocks because making gear hard to get is "hardcore." The only thing hardcore about it is how lame it is to obtain. SV would be doing itself and the world a favor if it made the yields from extracting about 10x as high. More gear. More PvP.

Should-a had SCS. Should-a made the game focused on PvE; you can always fight other players in a PvE game if the PvP option is there but you can't PvE worth a damn in a PvP based game, typically. Should-a polished the PvP it had around November of last year; gear was easy to get so people didn't mind losing it as much; they should have made basic metals like PI and Cuprum easy as hell to obtain and viable for combat, not a brutal grindfest (yeah, its not "that hard" to get) and fucking useless. Then, at least, people could use basic metal gear and the "hardcores" could waste their time grinding metal that is better (fractionally). Combat could have been about player skill, like SV said was the way they were going for MO, instead of a weeks long grindfest for 10 seconds of combat. Should-a left skills trainable without books. Should-a, would-a, could-a.

Didn't listen to their MMORPG veterans on the forums. Just forced out their unique "vision" that looked promising in mid-closed beta but turned out surprisingly cookie cutter. MO is about who has the time for grind, I'm afraid. Now that its released it aint going back to the way it was. Most a pity...

It says something, though, when my MO guild played UO on the Defiance free server and I enjoyed that as much as I have enjoyed MO at its highest moments.

[ChinaCat]

Originally Posted by Fantastipotomus

To be honest, as a UO veteran, if somebody copied UO exactly and slapped it in a very pretty 3d world....I'd play it.

This ^^

I've always said if a company would simply take old school UO and port it over in total to a new state of the art 3D world it would be an instant hit and fun as hell. That isn't nostalgia talking either. oh well....

-CC

[BigStackOfBeef]

Originally Posted by ChinaCat

Does this mean you finally bought MO and played "Mortal Online", and if so, have you played it longer than the 2-week trial you gave DFO?

-CC

truth is, im not into mmorpg currently. I need a simple online game to relax. So i have battlefield and bunch of other online games. I also play with friends each weekends so im set. I also currently spend my money on gym and its expensive. One day, i just know that il need a game that will prevent me from buying new games or playing other games.

So currently, im just watching MO development and i like the way they work on the game. I know one day, it will be perfect.

While for DF, i cannot think about supporting them one day. Huge patches instead of small is a reason i hate DF. While the grind is DF biggest problem, adjustment with small patches would had easily fix that. No matter what you say, you will always sound like an idiot, protecting the type of grind that promote Macroing. Lol, even a player made a thread in the DF official forum telling players to download a macro program. The thread had not even been deleted.

Overall, MO seem more sandbox both for vets and new players. DF, you only get to the sandbox part once you become a vet since you can have fun in all type of activity, including solo pvp.

[Gadzy]

Originally Posted by BigStackOfBeef

DF, you only get to the sandbox part once you become a vet since you can have fun in all type of activity, including solo pvp.

.. Which is a BS lie ..

[BigStackOfBeef]

Originally Posted by Gadzy

.. Which is a BS lie ..

No its not. Go ahead and play darkfall since you like it so much.

[Gadzy]

Originally Posted by BigStackOfBeef

No its not. Go ahead and play darkfall since you like it so much.

I'd say my 10 months of DF knows more than your two weeks. If you even did play two weeks...

[Narrat]

Originally Posted by Gadzy

I'd say my 10 months of DF knows more than your two weeks. If you even did play two weeks...

This is not a discussion of facts gadzy. A lot of us find that darkfall forces us to grind for considerable amounts of time. The same mechanics don't bother you.

Out of curiosity though, you have been playing DFO for months, and you find it cool. What made you decide to try out Mortal Online? What's keeping you here, participating in the MO community?

[Gadzy]

He "finds that darkfall foces him to grind", yet he hasn't tried actually playing Darkfall for an extended period of time. And MO might turn out good sometime? So why wouldn't I be here?

But to put an end to the topic:

There are many more subs to Darkfall. This is the truth.

[Raknar]

Originally Posted by Fantastipotomus

MO, at the height of closed beta, was nearly grindless. Skills gained fast, gear was gained fast. When you lost it you were able to live with your self. I can't imagine what the poor fuckers with Oghmium weapons and Cronite armor do when they die in combat. The gargantuan...colossal effort of attaining gear, even just a fucking set of bone plate that is worth a damn, makes MO into a grind fest.

People have accepted that sandbox=grind. Even in UO people accepted it. UO offered more than MO or DF in its age. Its age is over, I agree. People need not accept it, though. We are paying money for the game. We shouldn't need to spend hours and hours doing mundane things like chop at trees or rocks because making gear hard to get is "hardcore." The only thing hardcore about it is how lame it is to obtain. SV would be doing itself and the world a favor if it made the yields from extracting about 10x as high. More gear. More PvP.

What the hell are you talking about?

in one hour one can get enough scales for 3-4 complete sets of high end armor. In 30 minutes one can do enough to buy a steel sword. This is no grind. It can feel like a grind because the mobs are dumb as hell and that isn't fun for you but I guess we're all hoping for the epic patch to fix this but you can't call this grind unless your solution is to have steel weapons falling out of the sky.

And what kind of accomplishment would it be to have an end game sword if it only 2 minutes to do it? Whats the point? I don't get this at all nor do MMO designers in general cause SV surely isn't the only that says "well, end game gear doesn't fall out of the sky".

Go play Aion or some other asian game and discover what grind means. And the good thing about Aion and stuff like that is that when you die you get all your stuff back. You should like that, you don't have to grind anything ever again after you have all your end game gear.

[BigStackOfBeef]

Originally Posted by Gadzy

There are many more subs to Darkfall. This is the truth.

We all know that, so you didn't need to state the obvious. Still, the way DF had been made, the amount of sub they got is far from enough, while for MO base on ratio, its simply more healthy.

Also, the name of the topic is: DF vs MO considering population. Not what game got more pop.

[Gadzy]

"Now to my question: how many players are there in MO, and how many are there in DF? DF is split into one NA server, and one European server. MO is only one server, correct?"

It's fairly obvious that this was a direct question as to the population, not your misinterpretation of the title itself.

[Ruellis]

Originally Posted by Gadzy

But to put an end to the topic:

There are many more subs to Darkfall. This is the truth.

How many subs does Darkfall have and how many does MO have? Do you know the truth?

[Gadzy]

Originally Posted by Ruellis

How many subs does Darkfall have and how many does MO have? Do you know the truth?

Don't have to be Nostradamus to tell, this is fairly obvious.

[Ruellis]

Originally Posted by Gadzy

Don't have to be Nostradamus to tell, this is fairly obvious.

I don't need Nostradamus, I need simply numbers, estimates or guesstimates. Do you understand?

[Fantastipotomus]

Originally Posted by Raknar

What the hell are you talking about?

in one hour one can get enough scales for 3-4 complete sets of high end armor. In 30 minutes one can do enough to buy a steel sword. This is no grind. It can feel like a grind because the mobs are dumb as hell and that isn't fun for you but I guess we're all hoping for the epic patch to fix this but you can't call this grind unless your solution is to have steel weapons falling out of the sky.

And what kind of accomplishment would it be to have an end game sword if it only 2 minutes to do it? Whats the point? I don't get this at all nor do MMO designers in general cause SV surely isn't the only that says "well, end game gear doesn't fall out of the sky".

Go play Aion or some other asian game and discover what grind means. And the good thing about Aion and stuff like that is that when you die you get all your stuff back. You should like that, you don't have to grind anything ever again after you have all your end game gear.

Put a sock in it, sprout. The point was that increasing the time it takes to do something that took less time in a previous iteration is just a way to "put off" the end-game for awhile. They didn't make it more intense or more inventive. They literally took the amount of time it takes to raise Extraction and tripled it. That is all. They didn't make it harder to do (aside from Cats being used up). They just made it take longer. They didn't make gathering harder or gaining stats harder...they just increased the time it takes to do those things. If THAT is how they plan to give their game longevity...then THAT is a fucking stupid idea.

I don't mind a little work to get top tier stuff. I don't think it should be easy. Time shouldn't be the only ingredient preventing me from getting there, though. I KNOW how to extract shit. I've done 25k units of Saburra on a newly created SH and gone from 21 to 35 in Basic Extraction. It sure as hell isn't because I have no clue in what I'm doing. I had a maxed extractor in closed beta. It is because I get tired of going from rock to rock mining, dragging that shit to the grinder and gaining 4 skill a pop. MO was supposed to be about player skill and knowledge.

People seem to think that time=skill/knowledge. No, it doesn't. Knowing the recipes is knowledge. Using the right amount of catalyst is knowledge. Knowing the proper appliance is knowledge. Having it take you 3 months instead of 3 weeks to get to 100 skill IS grind. Pure and simple.

I don't know if you were in CB or OB. I don't care. Back then, you could max a char in 2 days. What you did with the maxed char, however, was your prerogative. The point was that the char skill was supposed to be back burner to the player skill. Now, it matters more. Now, gear matters more. Back then, steel swords WERE raining from the sky. Yet, back then, everyone still needed to replace lost weapons. Strange, huh?

You think a game NEEDS grind to make having something in that game worthwhile. To some degree, something that is good should be an investment to get. However, the concept that the longer something takes and the better it is makes the game better de facto is absurd. The Devs talked about how a Tungsteel sword would be better than a Steel sword...but that player skill would trump the materials the gear was made of. Where the hell did that go?

This game is heading into a cookie cutter, where an MMORPG HAS to be a certain way to be good.

[Narrat]

Originally Posted by Gadzy

Don't have to be Nostradamus to tell, this is fairly obvious.

So tell us. How many subscribers does DF have... and how many does MO have? As a lover of objective facts, you don't need to be asked to supply numbers I'm sure.

[Cheith]

Originally Posted by ChinaCat

This ^^

I've always said if a company would simply take old school UO and port it over in total to a new state of the art 3D world it would be an instant hit and fun as hell. That isn't nostalgia talking either. oh well....

-CC

So innovative and obviously such a good idea ... oh wait, nobody has funded that, amazing. /sarcasm off
C.

[Fantastipotomus]

Originally Posted by Cheith

So innovative and obviously such a good idea ... oh wait, nobody has funded that, amazing. /sarcasm off
C.

I said the original quote and WAS being somewhat nostalgic. It is no wonder, however, that every sandbox MMORPG that is coming out is trying to be "UO's spiritual successor." Why do you suppose that is? UO had a lot of subs? No. It did, but no. It is because people really loved that game. Cause it sucked? No. It kicked ass and was about 10 years ahead of its time. Origins got so many things right with UO it makes me sick.

It is basically true what you say, gamers expect more than UO gave 13 years ago. The technology has advanced and so has the gaming industry as a whole. The mentality of gamers, not only what they want but what they expect, has evolved with each new set of releases.

If a set of developers make a FPS game mashed with such an open sandbox MMORPG that actually works like they say, they will not be hurting for subs. Neither DFO nor MO have done that. The tech is there, someone just needs to find a set of rules and a vision. I hoped MO would be the one, which is why I back it. It still has a chance to be a good game but the door is slamming shut. I don't think it will ever have the same impact on my gaming tastes as UO has.

[Raknar]

Originally Posted by Fantastipotomus

Wall of text

Well, I haven't played my slaggie in a month or so but I didn't have much problems raising any skill except refining. Now you mined 25k saburra? And made 14 skill points. And you call that grind.

Man... this is laughable, 25k saburra takes what, some 15mn to mine? Oh my god the grind... you basically getting 1 SP per minute and you're complaining of grind. You're funny man.

If you get a donley you don't even have to make trips to town to make 25k saburra.

[Fantastipotomus]

Originally Posted by Raknar

Well, I haven't played my slaggie in a month or so but I didn't have much problems raising any skill except refining. Now you mined 25k saburra? And made 14 skill points. And you call that grind.

Man... this is laughable, 25k saburra takes what, some 15mn to mine? Oh my god the grind... you basically getting 1 SP per minute and you're complaining of grind. You're funny man.

If you get a donley you don't even have to make trips to town to make 25k saburra.

Once you get your Gathering up to 100, sure, maybe. I've counted and it was more like 50k, actually. Now I'm up to 48 and gathered maybe 100k. Basic extraction is the first tier skill for an Extractor.

Considering the price of books and the need for them, even 1s a minute isn't that great.

Again, though, you completely miss the point. I'm not complaining that MY grind is the worst thing in the world. I'm not complaining that MOs grind is the worst grind of any game. Mine isn't and it isn't. I'm complaining that game developers feel like they need to incorporate more grind to make their games last longer. Again, it took less time to get extraction up in beta. It still took time. It still wasn't a cake-walk. It was still just as complex. So why increase the time it takes to do it? The ONLY reason is to make the game last longer before your players hit end-game (which shouldn't really happen in a sandbox but does). It should not happen. Players get bored even of good games, but the argument still works.

[Gadzy]

Originally Posted by Ruellis

I don't need Nostradamus, I need simply numbers, estimates or guesstimates. Do you understand?

Am I to understand that you think MO has more subs than DF? Really?

Originally Posted by Narrat

So tell us. How many subscribers does DF have... and how many does MO have? As a lover of objective facts, you don't need to be asked to supply numbers I'm sure.

I'm not saying I know how many subs either game has. But could you tell me which mob is larger:


This one?



Or this one?



I know you can't get the numbers right on either one.


DF also has 3x the forum activity (this is where the stupid "lol nobody is playing, all on forums bla bla whine" normally goes).

[ltankhsd]

Originally Posted by Gadzy

Am I to understand that you think MO has more subs than DF? Really?



I'm not saying I know how many subs either game has. But could you tell me which mob is larger:


This one?



Or this one?



I know you can't get the numbers right on either one.


DF also has 3x the forum activity (this is where the stupid "lol nobody is playing, all on forums bla bla whine" normally goes).

So basically you can't answer the questions, except with questions of your own. Owned.

[Gadzy]

Originally Posted by ltankhsd

So basically you can't answer the questions, except with questions of your own. Owned.

No. I never claimed to know the populations of either game, but it's pretty damned obvious that the population of DF is higher than that of MO.

[Narrat]

Originally Posted by Gadzy

No. I never claimed to know the populations of either game, but it's pretty damned obvious that the population of DF is higher than that of MO.

Yes, you did claim to know. You even told us about all your evidence. You called your beliefs 'fact'.

[Gadzy]

Originally Posted by Narrat

Yes, you did claim to know. You even told us about all your evidence. You called your beliefs 'fact'.

Quote

[Narrat]

Originally Posted by Gadzy

Quote

You telling me you never said that it's a fact that DF's population is higher than it was before? Or that dev statements and clan sites confirm / prove this? Or that DFO's population is higher than MO's?

You really gonna make me do the damn quote-by-quote routine? I'm tired man, I'm tired.

[kio1992]

why is this thread still open anyway, it's just a massive flame/troll thread.

[Gadzy]

Originally Posted by Gadzy

No. I never claimed to know the populations of either game, but it's pretty damned obvious that the population of DF is higher than that of MO.

Originally Posted by Narrat

Yes, you did claim to know. You even told us about all your evidence. You called your beliefs 'fact'.

Originally Posted by Narrat

You telling me you never said that it's a fact that DF's population is higher than it was before? Or that dev statements and clan sites confirm / prove this? Or that DFO's population is higher than MO's?

The fuck man, make up your mind. You said that I claimed to know the populations of either game. I don't. I never have claimed to. Then you acted as though i denied other claims, which I didn't. Stop making an ass of yourself.

And for the AV statements, read the darkfall news section. I won't bother digging it out just because of your nit-picking.

The user made political map, as previously said, also indicates growth in the population.
http://darkfallinfo.com/pmap/index.php?mapserver=eu1
http://darkfallinfo.com/pmap/index.php?mapserver=us1

Right now the eu1 activity counter is broken. Note though, that this activity number is a minimum of active people within clans, it doesn't count any accounts that stay at the same clan rank and who don't pk all the time (chang alignment), this being mainly crafters, clan warriors and gatherers.

Now us1 alone has over 2000 clanned players marked as active by this method. This is a growing number compared to those a few months ago. The same could be seen on eu1.

[Narrat]

Originally Posted by Gadzy

The fuck man, make up your mind. You said that I claimed to know the populations of either game. I don't. I never have claimed to. Then you acted as though i denied other claims, which I didn't. Stop making an ass of yourself.

To say the population has grown implies that you know that the population now is higher than before; this implies a certain amount of knowledge in both current population and prior population. Unless you're basing your statements on the fact that you seem to see more people now than before; if this is the case, than it's an observation, not necessarily a truth. (if you woulda just stuck with "the population seems to me to be increasing", we wouldn't be arguing atm).

You also did imply that DF's population is higher than MO's. This implies that you know enough about the population numbers of both games to determine that one is larger than the other.

I'm not even necessarily arguing against any of your claims, but I sure as hell won't let them slide as 'facts' just because you keep repeating them.

[t00ns]

i wonder how many people write on these forums because they are bored shitless... i know its true for me.

[Gadzy]

Originally Posted by Narrat

To say the population has grown implies that you know that the population now is higher than before

Yes, because all the data says so. Maybe in your twisted world this means that I claim to know the exact population, but here in the real world it doesn't.

[Betel]

MO population at prime time EU hours is around 300.

No idea on Darkfall.

Continue

[ltankhsd]

Originally Posted by Betel

MO population at prime time EU hours is around 300.

No idea on Darkfall.

Continue

You're quoting from a dubious source so you don't really know. Also since I was in a battle the other night involving around 70-80 people I highly doubt that there are only 300 people on the server at any given time.

[Narrat]

Originally Posted by ltankhsd

You're quoting from a dubious source so you don't really know. Also since I was in a battle the other night involving around 70-80 people I highly doubt that there are only 300 people on the server at any given time.

I'm afraid your mistaken. It's repeated constantly be people who have no idea, so it's true now.

[ltankhsd]

"A lie told often enough becomes truth" Vladimir Lenin

[Betel]

Not a dubious source, just one you don't want to believe. There is a difference. They had access to precise data, do you?

Do you have some different data you'd like to share? Thought not.

So yeah, SV (or it's forum shill accounts) could solve this by just stating the number of active players. They won't though, as they are a company with shareholders and lying would probably count as fraudulent behaviour.

Still, keep trying to drum up customers ltankhsd. Multiple forums on multiple websites, and any time MO is mentioned there you are.

[Brandon Greymoor]

Originally Posted by Betel

Not a dubious source, just one you don't want to believe. There is a difference. They had access to precise data, do you?

Do you have some different data you'd like to share? Thought not.

So yeah, SV (or it's forum shill accounts) could solve this by just stating the number of active players. They won't though, as they are a company with shareholders and lying would probably count as fraudulent behaviour.

Still, keep trying to drum up customers ltankhsd. Multiple forums on multiple websites, and any time MO is mentioned there you are.

Lets face it when the same source claims they've been used as a scapegoat for SV's finances, claims no one gets banned, no duped items were removed (Well hello where are they?!). It has very little credability.

[Betel]

So far his claims appear spot on.

Hackers were repeatedly unbanned (can you name someone who was banned in the first few months?) and whole guilds had hacked chars.

Huge stacks of cash and refinables were not removed, as the players would ragequit.

Not heard the finances one, but anyone who tried to ban a player would be seen as doing that I guess. Since SV has so few customers, they can't afford to lose any of them.

SV could answer this for us right now. Tell us how many people are online at primetime EU. If they lie, and when/if the company asks for more funding/folds, they would be criminally liable. I have a feeling they will not answer

Hey if you enjoy the game, be my guest. Just don't lie to potential customers and inflate player numbers etc for purely selfish reasons.

[misterblague01]

Originally Posted by ltankhsd

You're quoting from a dubious source so you don't really know. Also since I was in a battle the other night involving around 70-80 people I highly doubt that there are only 300 people on the server at any given time.

Funny thing ltankhsd is you are going on a crusade on mmorpg.com with the exact same crap, but at the same time you tell people that you don't care since ppl on mmorpg.com are all full of shit.

[Ruellis]

Originally Posted by Betel

So far his claims appear spot on.

Hackers were repeatedly unbanned (can you name someone who was banned in the first few months?) and whole guilds had hacked chars.

Huge stacks of cash and refinables were not removed, as the players would ragequit.

Not heard the finances one, but anyone who tried to ban a player would be seen as doing that I guess. Since SV has so few customers, they can't afford to lose any of them.

SV could answer this for us right now. Tell us how many people are online at primetime EU. If they lie, and when/if the company asks for more funding/folds, they would be criminally liable. I have a feeling they will not answer

Hey if you enjoy the game, be my guest. Just don't lie to potential customers and inflate player numbers etc for purely selfish reasons.

I am for unbanning hackers if they provide SV insights to the hacks. Otherwise it will be difficult to totally stop hacking. It is a game and the assets in game are not real. We accept more corruption in the real world, so why not accept the virtual one can also be corrupted.

As for the primetime EU players, since I never play on EU prime time (unless 07-09 UTC is regarded prime time) I don't know if the statement of 300 players at primetime is right. Considering the players I met and the scattering of players, I think it is possible that it has some truth that there were 300 players in game the time when I played.