The New Extracting Fiasco

[Tubbly]

[horkesh]

I am really not sure where this game is headed. Instead of boasting people in shining metal plate armour, everyone running around is either naked or wearing some rag-tag looking armour made of scales. At least most people were able to afford steel weapons, now...

Not to mention that ever since the molarium and then wisent nerf, economy has slowed by a lot. Meh, I honestly don't understand what they are hoping to achieve.

[Markus Lovdell]

Originally Posted by horkesh

I am really not sure where this game is headed. Instead of boasting people in shining metal plate armour, everyone running around is either naked or wearing some rag-tag looking armour made of scales. At least most people were able to afford steel weapons, now...

Not to mention that ever since the molarium and then wisent nerf, economy has slowed by a lot. Meh, I honestly don't understand what they are hoping to achieve.

actually it all gets balanced just like in the real world. It is now more special to have high level gear and armors/clothes.

Changes like this affects in many ways the ways and looks of people, so even behaviour.

Believe it or not. It wouldt be fun if everyone got a house, got 100 mounts, all the weapon armor they ever wanted.

They should just try to balance the professions some more. Its now like 100 times better to go wisent hunting than mining. that is wrong

the basic jobs should be equally advanced and needed almost the same amount of skills. And in an hour get you approximately the same money.

[horkesh]

Originally Posted by Markus Lovdell

actually it all gets balanced just like in the real world. It is now more special to have high level gear and armors/clothes.

What? It's not special. No one wears metal armour because it's impractical due to weight issues. When was the last time you saw someone wearing metal plate? Even without the weight issue, the price of metal with the new catalyst system will definitely make it unobtainable for a large majority.

And yes, it would be fun for people to actually own some cool stuff. Why do you think WoW has millions of subscribers? Before extraction was in, I personally found beta a helluva lot of fun because armour was easily obtainable. Then you could focus on having fun.

You can have a unique vision and design while still having a game that is fun to play. There is difference between putting some effort into getting items and working - literally working - for them.

[McNab]

Originally Posted by horkesh

What? It's not special. No one wears metal armour because it's impractical due to weight issues. When was the last time you saw someone wearing metal plate? Even without the weight issue, the price of metal with the new catalyst system will definitely make it unobtainable for a large majority.

And yes, it would be fun for people to actually own some cool stuff. Why do you think WoW has millions of subscribers? Before extraction was in, I personally found beta a helluva lot of fun because armour was easily obtainable. Then you could focus on having fun.

You can have a unique vision and design while still having a game that is fun to play. There is difference between putting some effort into getting items and working - literally working - for them.

Amazing some people here are quite eager to work in game... People are getting erections when they talk about paying tax to big guilds...

[Markus Lovdell]

Originally Posted by McNab

Amazing some people here are quite eager to work in game... People are getting erections when they talk about paying tax to big guilds...

how often have you seen politics in a MMO besides Eve ?

[Markus Lovdell]

Originally Posted by horkesh

What? It's not special. No one wears metal armour because it's impractical due to weight issues. When was the last time you saw someone wearing metal plate? Even without the weight issue, the price of metal with the new catalyst system will definitely make it unobtainable for a large majority.

And yes, it would be fun for people to actually own some cool stuff. Why do you think WoW has millions of subscribers? Before extraction was in, I personally found beta a helluva lot of fun because armour was easily obtainable. Then you could focus on having fun.

You can have a unique vision and design while still having a game that is fun to play. There is difference between putting some effort into getting items and working - literally working - for them.

I see what you mean. It should be easier than now. But not too easy. I see people with metal armor sometimes right now also. And if i start to see everyone with a metal armor then I would know somethings wrong.

WoW doesnt have politics, house building, player vendors, local banking, different prizing due to region, player based economy, thieves, pvp (on almost every place with full loot)

this is a far more mature, hardcore game

[Andorz]

The new system will put me out of business. It has to be revamped.

[MaliceEnnui]

I have to agree with the above, this new system will put me out of business as well. Providing a lot of the catalysts are not pickable (for the higher end stuff) means I have to farm up more money to buy them. Then to risk running out and getting ganked with all of it just makes me cringe. I could buy a portable unit in town, but then I have to worry about someone getting a bone on when they see it and calling guard. There goes my 100s down the drain. awesome move SV. Hope to see it fixed, but I won't hold my breath.

[Modarbreath]

If solo/poor extractors don't have enough coin to buy what they need to refine/extract to the next level , then just sell the stuff.

What this might do ,is create more of a market for unworked tier 2 materials .

They also stated in patch notes that prices will be adjusted as well as you soon will be able to pick or create some of the catalysts we now have to buy .

[Cheith]

Originally Posted by Modarbreath

They also stated in patch notes that prices will be adjusted as well as you soon will be able to pick or create some of the catalysts we now have to buy .

Ah, but the question is, is this soon or Soon(TM)?
Cheers,
C.

[sylp]

did anyone try extracting waterstone with 1k fuming salt, and see what it really do take?

[Cheith]

Originally Posted by sylp

did anyone try extracting waterstone with 1k fuming salt, and see what it really do take?

Highest I tried was Rock Oil on an intermediate extraction at 175c which made no difference.
You could do a reasonably valid test with 100 Waterstone and 10 fuming salt if you are prepared to 'waste' 150s on it.
With the vendors bugging out right now, though, I'm not even prepared to try.
Cheers,
C.

[Brzpf]

i stop extranting till it change or i will delete the char

[Mats Persson]

Originally Posted by Cheith

The results are that you need 1 catalyst (irrespective of cost) for every 10 units of ore that is actually extracted. So, if you refine 1000 units, but get 500 back, you use up 50 catalyst.

Right.

Unless this changes, or I have got something very wrong, things are going to be much more expensive.
Cheers,
C.

You are right, for some reason the price changes wasn't included in the update. I'm very sorry. The next patch (tonight?) will set the following prices:

Name - Buy from Player - Sell to Player - % of old Sell Price
(All prices in Cuprum)

Water...........: 0 : 1 : 10%
Coal.............: 4 : 12 : 60%
Calx Powder...: 4 : 12 : 60%
Palm Oil.........: 12 : 24 : 10%
Coke.............: 5 : 20 : 80%
Beeswax........: 18 : 36 : 10%
Calamine........: 9 : 27 : 60%
Bor...............: 10 : 30 : 3%
Sulfur............: 12 : 36 : 60%
Nitre..............: 15 : 45 : 30%
Rock Oil..........: 20 : 60 : 34,3%
Ichor.............: 25 : 80 : 59,3%
Fuming Salt.....: 30 : 90 : 6%

Previously, refining a full stack of Waterstone with Fuming Salt (1) would cost you 1500c. Now it will cost you 90c*100 = 9000c. More expensive, but a lot better than 150000c.

1 Water cost you 10c before. Now you will sometimes need 100, new cost will be 100c.

The more "intermediate" catalysts which are extractable (such as Coal, Calx Powder) haven't changed much, as they are mainly byproducts of extracting (and their sell prices haven't changed except for Ichor, from 27 to 25).

The "intermediate" catalysts that are pickable haven't changed much, but the availability will be affected by the later updates to the pickables.

Even with these changes, yes, things have gotten a bit more expensive. (Although they will even out a bit as we update and introduce more pickables, at least for those who PtP trade and/or gather themselves.) And just to have it said, there are reasons to why we patch this before updating the pickables. But it was definitely never intended to patch the increased catalyst use without the price change. Again, I'm sorry.

[Tubbly]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

The next patch (tonight?)

:OOOO

[BasilTeshi]

Wooh. Look at the price of Bor now. Nice.

[PyrateLV]

Originally Posted by Markus Lovdell

Believe it or not. It wouldt be fun if everyone got a house, got 100 mounts, all the weapon armor they ever wanted.

I dont believe it.
How is being poor in a game fun. Its not fun IRL?
How is not having things in a game fun. It isnt IRL?

If Im riding along on my 1 horse, wearing my 1 set of armor and 1 weapon and get PKed its not fun to have to go and grind enough money/materials just to get what I had back.
Its more fun to go to my stable/bank/house, grab another horse some more gear and then go after the SOB that took my stuff.

Why do Game Developers think that making me grind and work and struggle to even be marginally well off is fun?
I do it IRL every damn day and its not fun.
I come to games to get away from that grind/struggle/work. To be and do what I cant IRL.

[BasilTeshi]

Originally Posted by PyrateLV

I dont believe it.
How is being poor in a game fun. Its not fun IRL?
How is not having things in a game fun. It isnt IRL?

If Im riding along on my 1 horse, wearing my 1 set of armor and 1 weapon and get PKed its not fun to have to go and grind enough money/materials just to get what I had back.
Its more fun to go to my stable/bank/house, grab another horse some more gear and then go after the SOB that took my stuff.

Why do Game Developers think that making me grind and work and struggle to even be marginally well off is fun?
I do it IRL every damn day and its not fun.
I come to games to get away from that grind/struggle/work. To be and do what I cant IRL.

Go look up CoD, or some other FPS shooter on the console. Should be more up your alley.

[PyrateLV]

Originally Posted by Modarbreath

They also stated in patch notes that prices will be adjusted as well as you soon will be able to pick or create some of the catalysts we now have to buy .

Thats all great and everything, but the problem is they need to put these features in at the same time as they directly affect each other.

Just increasing the catalyst amount used during extraction with out adjusting the vendor price or allowing us to gather catalyst from the environment is completely unbalancing.

Something like this is an All or Nothing change.
You cant just put one piece in without screwing up the whole thing.

[Saphirix]

The biggest problem is that the price for metals will rais quite much.

Few players could afford to buy steel and thungsteel, not ot mention cronite and Oghmium. Now even fewer players will buy metals and slaghaulers can't keep extracting because they can't afford new catalysts...

I don't think this was a good move for the game economy.

Slaghauler wasn't nearly as good to get money as a figheter (wisent farmer) now they will be even worse.

Wisent farm has to change. It is not fun.

[Tubbly]

Kill some Dire Wolves for some cash

[PyrateLV]

Originally Posted by BasilTeshi

Go look up CoD, or some other FPS shooter on the console. Should be more up your alley.

Whats that supposed to mean? That I just want things handed to me or that I want an Easy Button? That Im a Console Kiddie?
I never said that or insinuated to such.
Nice try at a Troll.

I like FPS's but only for short periods because they are too linear and there is really no sense in accomplishment or purpose.

Thats why I play MMOs.
I dont mind having to make a commitment to a game and apply myself to achieve things. I prefer it.

I dont however want it to feel like work.

[pockets]

You make more money killing a wisent than a dire wolf. You can actually make almost the same amount of money killing a dire wolf as killing a springbok.

[Cloud Strife]

Originally Posted by Brzpf

i stop extranting till it change or i will delete the char

Same here, wait a little Bit and we will See no more steel on the market. Why? Need to much time to grind for catalysts

[Dementia]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

You are right, for some reason the price changes wasn't included in the update. I'm very sorry. The next patch (tonight?) will set the following prices:

Phew, some great news ^^

[Pancake Effct]

Originally Posted by MalbynaTOR

Personnaly i just don't get why slaghaulers had to be 'nerfed'...among all crafters, they already were the most grindy and expensive to get your skills (up), why make it even harder???

They will work on things that no one wants them too, and will not work on the things everyone wants them to work on. Like the old saying, if it aint broke, don't fix it.

[Odysseus011]

This is how it should have been from the beginning, maybe even a bit harder to acquire steel and tungsteel. Much of the "ancient" armor and weapons of our world that have been referred to in this post were made of bronze and iron, both of which unfortunately, have been skipped almost completely in the world of Nave.

Really, why should it only take thirty minutes or less of wisent killing to replace a "high end" weapon. You should feel the loss of a steel weapon in your gut as in Eve when you lose a nicely fit t2 ship. Its kind of like an "oh shit!" moment instead of a "Damn, anyone have an extra steel spear?".

[Matari]

Originally Posted by Odysseus011

Really, why should it only take thirty minutes or less of wisent killing to replace a "high end" weapon. You should feel the loss of a steel weapon in your gut as in Eve when you lose a nicely fit t2 ship. Its kind of like an "oh shit!" moment instead of a "Damn, anyone have an extra steel spear?".

Although I think the changes kind of suck I believe you're on to something here.

[pockets]

Its still going to be expensive because you will need 70+ catalyst to burn 1 stack of rock.

[PyrateLV]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

Right.

You are right, for some reason the price changes wasn't included in the update. I'm very sorry. The next patch (tonight?) will set the following prices:

Name - Buy from Player - Sell to Player - % of old Sell Price
(All prices in Cuprum)

Water...........: 0 : 1 : 10%
Coal.............: 4 : 12 : 60%
Calx Powder...: 4 : 12 : 60%
Palm Oil.........: 12 : 24 : 10%
Coke.............: 5 : 20 : 80%
Beeswax........: 18 : 36 : 10%
Calamine........: 9 : 27 : 60%
Bor...............: 10 : 30 : 3%
Sulfur............: 12 : 36 : 60%
Nitre..............: 15 : 45 : 30%
Rock Oil..........: 20 : 60 : 34,3%
Ichor.............: 25 : 80 : 59,3%
Fuming Salt.....: 30 : 90 : 6%

Previously, refining a full stack of Waterstone with Fuming Salt (1) would cost you 1500c. Now it will cost you 90c*100 = 9000c. More expensive, but a lot better than 150000c.

1 Water cost you 10c before. Now you will sometimes need 100, new cost will be 100c.

The more "intermediate" catalysts which are extractable (such as Coal, Calx Powder) haven't changed much, as they are mainly byproducts of extracting (and their sell prices haven't changed except for Ichor, from 27 to 25).

The "intermediate" catalysts that are pickable haven't changed much, but the availability will be affected by the later updates to the pickables.

Even with these changes, yes, things have gotten a bit more expensive. (Although they will even out a bit as we update and introduce more pickables, at least for those who PtP trade and/or gather themselves.) And just to have it said, there are reasons to why we patch this before updating the pickables. But it was definitely never intended to patch the increased catalyst use without the price change. Again, I'm sorry.

Thanks Mats for the explanation.

[pockets]

Like I have said before I can go with changes like this if there was an economy in this game. As of now there isn't one.

[deathshroud]

this added complication to crafting simply enforces the use of bone/dental materialks even further. I like the idea behind it. Having the catalysts in the world that a new proffesion (gatherers) can make a profit from. But if you are gonig to bump up the difficulty of metal gains you really need to bump up the animal tissue difficulty to.

[davidgh]

Originally Posted by Odysseus011

This is how it should have been from the beginning, maybe even a bit harder to acquire steel and tungsteel. Much of the "ancient" armor and weapons of our world that have been referred to in this post were made of bronze and iron, both of which unfortunately, have been skipped almost completely in the world of Nave.

Really, why should it only take thirty minutes or less of wisent killing to replace a "high end" weapon. You should feel the loss of a steel weapon in your gut as in Eve when you lose a nicely fit t2 ship. Its kind of like an "oh shit!" moment instead of a "Damn, anyone have an extra steel spear?".

Agree, however..

One should be able to make the same profit selling purely to npc as a fighter and a miner. They were not even close before, and now even when waiting for next patch, it will be worse.

[Cheith]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

Right.

You are right, for some reason the price changes wasn't included in the update. I'm very sorry. The next patch (tonight?) will set the following prices:

Name - Buy from Player - Sell to Player - % of old Sell Price
(All prices in Cuprum)

Water...........: 0 : 1 : 10%
Coal.............: 4 : 12 : 60%
Calx Powder...: 4 : 12 : 60%
Palm Oil.........: 12 : 24 : 10%
Coke.............: 5 : 20 : 80%
Beeswax........: 18 : 36 : 10%
Calamine........: 9 : 27 : 60%
Bor...............: 10 : 30 : 3%
Sulfur............: 12 : 36 : 60%
Nitre..............: 15 : 45 : 30%
Rock Oil..........: 20 : 60 : 34,3%
Ichor.............: 25 : 80 : 59,3%
Fuming Salt.....: 30 : 90 : 6%

Previously, refining a full stack of Waterstone with Fuming Salt (1) would cost you 1500c. Now it will cost you 90c*100 = 9000c. More expensive, but a lot better than 150000c.

1 Water cost you 10c before. Now you will sometimes need 100, new cost will be 100c.

The more "intermediate" catalysts which are extractable (such as Coal, Calx Powder) haven't changed much, as they are mainly byproducts of extracting (and their sell prices haven't changed except for Ichor, from 27 to 25).

The "intermediate" catalysts that are pickable haven't changed much, but the availability will be affected by the later updates to the pickables.

Even with these changes, yes, things have gotten a bit more expensive. (Although they will even out a bit as we update and introduce more pickables, at least for those who PtP trade and/or gather themselves.) And just to have it said, there are reasons to why we patch this before updating the pickables. But it was definitely never intended to patch the increased catalyst use without the price change. Again, I'm sorry.

Thanks for the clarification Mats, and the quick answer. A bit more expensive I can live with.
Cheers,
C.

[flytail]

Originally Posted by Odysseus011

This is how it should have been from the beginning, maybe even a bit harder to acquire steel and tungsteel. Much of the "ancient" armor and weapons of our world that have been referred to in this post were made of bronze and iron, both of which unfortunately, have been skipped almost completely in the world of Nave.

Really, why should it only take thirty minutes or less of wisent killing to replace a "high end" weapon. You should feel the loss of a steel weapon in your gut as in Eve when you lose a nicely fit t2 ship. Its kind of like an "oh shit!" moment instead of a "Damn, anyone have an extra steel spear?".

I agree fully with this

[Cheith]

Originally Posted by Odysseus011

This is how it should have been from the beginning, maybe even a bit harder to acquire steel and tungsteel. Much of the "ancient" armor and weapons of our world that have been referred to in this post were made of bronze and iron, both of which unfortunately, have been skipped almost completely in the world of Nave.

Really, why should it only take thirty minutes or less of wisent killing to replace a "high end" weapon. You should feel the loss of a steel weapon in your gut as in Eve when you lose a nicely fit t2 ship. Its kind of like an "oh shit!" moment instead of a "Damn, anyone have an extra steel spear?".

While you have a point there would have to be some mechanics changes too so that steel weapons were appropriately more powerful to reflect the increased relative costs. This would be especially true in PvP, for example.

Cheers,
C.

[SOFWarrior]

Originally Posted by pockets

Like I have said before I can go with changes like this if there was an economy in this game. As of now there isn't one.

I disagree - there is an economy in the game, it's just a fledgling one right now.

But since you're complaining about the economy - do you want to know how a more robust, sophisticated economy is going to develop? By doing the types of things they are doing right now.

As the economy in MO evolves, there are going to be a number of changes that are going to seem draconian. People hate change - and often believe that the status quo is somehow "right", or the way it should always be. Not so.

Everyone should be prepared for a lot more changes as SV continues to improve the economic model in the game.

[sylp]

now dont be a ass and add em pickables in GK mines.

[Saphirix]

Originally Posted by Odysseus011

This is how it should have been from the beginning, maybe even a bit harder to acquire steel and tungsteel. Much of the "ancient" armor and weapons of our world that have been referred to in this post were made of bronze and iron, both of which unfortunately, have been skipped almost completely in the world of Nave.

Really, why should it only take thirty minutes or less of wisent killing to replace a "high end" weapon. You should feel the loss of a steel weapon in your gut as in Eve when you lose a nicely fit t2 ship. Its kind of like an "oh shit!" moment instead of a "Damn, anyone have an extra steel spear?".

Good point