Murdercount from suicide

[incorrectlogin]

So if nobody knows yet, if you hit someone, even accidentally, they can commit suicide and you will get a murdercount.

Somehow I think that needs to be changed.

[sylp]

hmm, thats just wrong.
he chose to die by his own actions.

[Zealot]

You forgot the part where SV doesn't have access to some magical device that accurately tells if somebody intentionally suicided or died because of outside help.

Once they add assault lists it should be better.

[Calligan]

That how i got red in 20 minute i had 0 mc before prior courtesy of clavicus and alpharius.
It need to be changed but you can use this weapon against let said griefer like the op, the weird thing is with the light grey when you hit a grey there should not be any murdercount.
And the dev are able to tell who was the last killer if it a player or a pet mc if not no mc.

[Cheith]

Originally Posted by incorrectlogin

So if nobody knows yet, if you hit someone, even accidentally, they can commit suicide and you will get a murdercount.

Somehow I think that needs to be changed.

You must have got some bad Karma from all that horse killing!
But, good to know.
C.

[LordMega]

Originally Posted by Cheith

You must have got some bad Karma from all that horse killing!
But, good to know.
C.

I agree. Since I know the OP's IGN I'm going to do exactly this. MURDERCOUNTS INCOMING.

[Khayman]

Although its a good way to get revenge (hehe), it does give off that bug-vibe. Am guessing it is definitely not intended... But it's a pretty funny way to still get indirect murdercounts.

Say you were chasing someone, hit them a few times... Of course they are too whimpish to face you in a 10vs1 fight, so he/she legs it off a cliff... And thus dying, with all their precious loot... Now it was the aggressors fault that player died, even if not by his sword.

Still, i agree it needs fixing... Why the hell did i write a scenario like that instead of just simply saying "It needs fixing" *posts*.

[pockets]

lol I do this all the time. People hit me because they think I am a hidden criminal and I suicide :P

[BasilTeshi]

Originally Posted by pockets

lol I do this all the time. People hit me because they think I am a hidden criminal and I suicide :P

^^One of the reasons that push was added into finding a thief.

[Mats Persson]

Originally Posted by Zealot

You forgot the part where SV doesn't have access to some magical device that accurately tells if somebody intentionally suicided or died because of outside help.

Once they add assault lists it should be better.

Hmm, well, if he's talking about the literal suicide (the button), it should be possible to monitor without a magical device

However like you say the other types of suicide (drowning, jumping off a cliff, getting killed by a friend) are more or less impossible to do something about MC-wise, assault list or not. We have talked about various monitoring systems, however there are tons of possible issues with introducing them - meaning they would probably lead to even more possibilities to "exploit" the system then there is now. In the end, you will probably always have to take the risk that the (neutral) person you hit runs off and gets himself killed just to give you a Murder Count.

Bottom line is: If you hit someone innocent (neutral), always be prepared to take a MC for it in the end. This is because you can never know what will happen afterwards; for instance if someone decides to "help" you and actually kills the person within 2 minutes of your last attack, you will still be on the victims assault list when s/he dies, and thus you may get a MC.

[deathshroud]

i would have thoguht having any hits over 200 damage would negate the murdercount system, so if someone falls and recieves a hit of 400 its obviously not from a player.

Drowning could also work same way i guess, damage thorugh drowning will clear the assault list once u drowned. would mean seperating the current damage types into 3 i guess, fall damage/ being hit and drowning

[Ruellis]

How about making murdercount based om damage? If you only made 5 damage points to a person, and somebody made 80 damage points, you will not receive a MC.

[Qeric]

Originally Posted by Ruellis

How about making murdercount based om damage? If you only made 5 damage points to a person, and somebody made 80 damage points, you will not receive a MC.

Well if so, you could gather alot people slice him once and by so not getting a murdercount even tho it would be an intended kill.

[djoutsider711]

There should be a bit more monitoring on this. I like the simple systen.. if the person commits suicide, it automatically clears the record. So, record cleared as soon as you click suicide. May be "exploitable" but only to the advantage of the people that tried to kill the person.

If you take more than 200 damage.. should be automatically recognized as a fall... no player can possibly do that damage.

Drowning.. hard fix.. so I guess a murder count from that would be okay. At least the options would be cut down considerably.

[Mats Persson]

Originally Posted by deathshroud

i would have thoguht having any hits over 200 damage would negate the murdercount system, so if someone falls and recieves a hit of 400 its obviously not from a player.

Originally Posted by Ruellis

How about making murdercount based om damage? If you only made 5 damage points to a person, and somebody made 80 damage points, you will not receive a MC.

The assault list will work like this:
Anyone that has damaged you within the last 2 minutes are put on your Assault List. When you die, and if you are Neutral, you get the opportunity to place a Murder Count on anyone on that list.

Now if me and my gang beats you to death, you will get the opportunity to place a MC on me even though I personally only hit you for 1 Dmg, because I assisted in the killing. Maybe several, or all in my gang beat you for 1 Dmg? Everyone are eligible for MC, because everyone assisted in the killing. Thus, the MC cannot be dependent on damage. Otherwise, we would just gang up on you. Or I would hit you for 3 Dmg and kill you after your fight with that Dire Wolf, and avoid MC.

Regarding falling damage and drowning - what if we beat you down to 1 HP, and the last blow knocked you off a cliff, the fall dealing 200 Dmg to you or making you drown? Should that negate the MCs? No, of course not.

But what if you jumped on purpose? Well, the problem is that we have no way of knowing this. Check if your last move was a jump? Well, you might have jumped to climb a rock to get out of the way, and then received the blow that made you fall. Ok, so let's make it so the MC is canceled if you jumped right before getting fall damage AND didn't get hit after jumping. Solved?

Not really; an individual that wanted to give MCs simply wouldn't jump, s/he would run off the cliff instead. And obviously we cannot make the same check regarding moving: Was moving the last thing you did before getting fall damage? Umm, yes, quite likely, because you were not just standing there letting them kill you.

[markedman]

Sorry Mats - you are wrong and I disagree totally. Stop with the silly what-if routine. In all the PVP combat I have seen there is no one jumping off cliffs in the last sec. I have seen the screen exploit and the insta-log used regularly. This is griefing and it is ruining the game and driving people away. The damage count would work nicely and if by chance someone at the last second of a real battle jumps then so be it. The suicide griefing is a tactic of children and has no legitimate valve in a real PVP game. Get on to it and make the change. Stop making excuses.

[deathshroud]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

The assault list will work like this:
Anyone that has damaged you within the last 2 minutes are put on your Assault List. When you die, and if you are Neutral, you get the opportunity to place a Murder Count on anyone on that list.

Now if me and my gang beats you to death, you will get the opportunity to place a MC on me even though I personally only hit you for 1 Dmg, because I assisted in the killing. Maybe several, or all in my gang beat you for 1 Dmg? Everyone are eligible for MC, because everyone assisted in the killing. Thus, the MC cannot be dependent on damage. Otherwise, we would just gang up on you. Or I would hit you for 3 Dmg and kill you after your fight with that Dire Wolf, and avoid MC.

Regarding falling damage and drowning - what if we beat you down to 1 HP, and the last blow knocked you off a cliff, the fall dealing 200 Dmg to you or making you drown? Should that negate the MCs? No, of course not.

But what if you jumped on purpose? Well, the problem is that we have no way of knowing this. Check if your last move was a jump? Well, you might have jumped to climb a rock to get out of the way, and then received the blow that made you fall. Ok, so let's make it so the MC is canceled if you jumped right before getting fall damage AND didn't get hit after jumping. Solved?

Not really; an individual that wanted to give MCs simply wouldn't jump, s/he would run off the cliff instead. And obviously we cannot make the same check regarding moving: Was moving the last thing you did before getting fall damage? Umm, yes, quite likely, because you were not just standing there letting them kill you.

those examples you gave mats are very remote, i mean it could happen maybe 1 in 10000 times in a pvp fight. But people purposefully giving you a murdercount is a much higher chance

what im saying is, if you take a single hit for more than is possible from an npc or player like 400 then it has to be fall damage and your current assault list is wiped.

[Zealot]

Originally Posted by deathshroud

those examples you gave mats are very remote, i mean it could happen maybe 1 in 10000 times in a pvp fight. But people purposefully giving you a murdercount is a much higher chance

what im saying is, if you take a single hit for more than is possible from an npc or player like 400 then it has to be fall damage and your current assault list is wiped.

This would work if they took out all forms of knockback, which would be stupid.

just avoid hitting people, it isn't that hard.

[djoutsider711]

it is a tricky situation.. though I would not get hateful with Mats. He is obviously/or has already thinking about this issue. So I am happy.

I still feel that clicking "Suicide" should wipe the list. The rest can stay.

Even someone jumping off a cliff in mid combat... the person would have died one way or another. It was the Aggressor that made the person jump.. Just like a building that is on fire. The fire is so painful that people would rather jump out the window and splatter on the ground below. In a panic situation or one of life/death people will do crazy things. They wouldnt jump if you didnt attack them.

Thank you Mats for showing the depth you look into and think about things. Makes me feel fuzzy inside.

Rock on!

[incorrectlogin]

Originally Posted by LordMega

I agree. Since I know the OP's IGN I'm going to do exactly this. MURDERCOUNTS INCOMING.

If we are hitting you anyway, it so we can kill you...and that's so you aren't there to call guards while we kill your horse. :P

So feel free to suicide.

[Balidore]

So... in conclusion of all this... Devs, OP, players.... you're all saying I can run in front of someone hitting a pig outside Meduli, then go drown myself and turn the world red? Honestly, have to agree with the damage amount on this one. I'll call it the "lesser of 2 evils" idea. Not to mention... may promote more soloing than ganking being that some people like their mc's. I'm always game for more solo fights

[Bevo]

The small damage idea for accidental hits doesn't work. By that I mean that anyone with less than say 20points of damage on someone doesn't get the MC. It doesn't work in other games and won't work here. Other games that have tried it have had a hell of a lot more QQing about people using groups to abuse it, than the amount of QQing from suicides because it is a lot more fun to gang up and grief people by killing them abusing this than it is to grief people by killing yourself giving MCs. In one way you are getting griefing satisfaction by kill them in the other you are getting griefing satisfaction just giving them MCs.

However, I do like the ideas of clearing the list when you click the suicide button, and I also like the idea of not giving MCs if your last damage was for over 200 points.

[Ruellis]

Damage based murdercount can work if designed properly:
- The final hit always give MC no matter how little damage point.
- Damages points decrease with time.
- Among the persons who damaged you the 30% with highest damages will get MC or in the assault list.

[Bevo]

Originally Posted by Ruellis

Damage based murdercount can work if designed properly:
- The final hit always give MC no matter how little damage point.
- Damages points decrease with time.
- Among the persons who damaged you the 30% with highest damages will get MC or in the assault list.

Say you have dude who is fighting a wisent and is at 40 hp left. 3 blues come by and see this dude and say "WOOT! Free loot, no MC! Lets go!" and they each hit the dude for 15 points. No MC, free loot, one pissed off noob. There is also the whole Darkfall thing. Just get a big group of dude to smack the guy each doing low damage but with enough people to kill him. Easy griefing. And you can do this to noobs very easy, as they hardly have any HP to start with.

In other games people seem to LOVE to use these ways to grief and there is always a ton of QQing about it. While ya, there are some people who may get a MC for an accedental hit now and then or someone may go around and get hit then jump off a cliff now and then, but the griefers don't seem to enjoy this as much as grouping up and griefing abusing the min damage tricks. In the end how it is now, if you hit someone expect a MC. You should be more careful, or just accept the consequences. If you are farming pig outside Meduli watch who is around you.

I just feel that you are trying to fix something by creating a much bigger problem.

[Zealot]

Seriously. Stop pulling ideas out of your ass and then posting without even reading them. Both the darkfall and mortal online teams ran into this problem and came up with the best possible solution after a large group thinking marathon. No new solutions are going to pop out of thin air because your brain had a fart and you mistook it for a brilliant idea.

It happens every time something that cannot be solved comes up. "Oh, those guys are dumbasses. It is really simple, just *insert terrible, complicated idea that is filled with blatent holes here*. It is so simple, I just came up with that mid sentence!"

[Kuroi]

Originally Posted by markedman

In all the PVP combat I have seen there is no one jumping off cliffs in the last sec.

lol i did it when i encountered Godly at the MK entrance, i was naked with no loot so i jumped off the cliff and fell into the river without dying it's been funny

[longhairdfreak]

I do jump off cliffs often when being chased, I may survive and they may not chase...or in same cases I can rez and loot before they can run around and loot. BUT these are situational, and not the average of Nave. Just a few specific spots I use to my advantage. I fully believe a fall or suicide should negate the murdercount. If I prefer to lunge from a cliff instead of falling on a blade, that is usually going to be my choice. But it becomes suicide. If someone can find a way to knock me off a cliff as a finishing move all..300 style, more power to them, let that rare instance not get get them a murdercount. Wiping the list by suicide button or 200+ damage would save on abuse and add an incentive to do a cool kill. Keep in mind, I am a crafter mainly, not a pk'er and would most likely be on the receiving end and still feel it would be the best solution.

[Mats Persson]

Originally Posted by markedman

Stop with the silly what-if routine. In all the PVP combat I have seen there is no one jumping off cliffs in the last sec.

Originally Posted by deathshroud

those examples you gave mats are very remote, i mean it could happen maybe 1 in 10000 times in a pvp fight.

Originally Posted by longhairdfreak

If I prefer to lunge from a cliff instead of falling on a blade, that is usually going to be my choice.

I do agree that my examples are a bit far-fetched; I used examples from the game at its current state, and right now there are only so many options to fling a person from a cliff. Sorry for that, my point was not to say "look at all these great examples", I merely wanted to illustrate the problem in general.

The point is there will be more ways to throw people from cliffs as the game progresses. Siege weapons or Area of Effect spells may not be "intended" for that very purpose, of course, but that is not to say they can't or won't be used for it. Horse kicks, trap doors, "mines", forced levitation, the shockwave spell seen in the Alpha teaser etc are just some of the things that springs to mind.

So again. By negating MC for fall damage, every time we introduce something like the above we run the risk of chaos and abuse of the MC system, as well as having to introduce special-case exceptions to this negation-rule. And that was what I tried to describe with my what-if examples; what if jumping/hit? What if hit by siege weapon, then fall damage? What if hit by AOE and then fall damage? At which interval? What if someone starts to do the Age-of-Conan-horse-on-bridge-kicking? The what-if list will go on and on with this policy, and we risk of ending up with a very complex rule-set both code-wise and game-wise.

By not negating MC for fall damage, there will always be an "insurance" against all the various ways people will be able to toss people from cliffs, now and in the future. No what ifs. No exceptions. The down-point of this is that it comes with the possibility for people to willfully commit suicide, thus taking advantage of the system. (However it's important to note that only Neutral players will be able to do so, and only after actually getting hit first.)

And that's why I said:

"If you're about to hit someone innocent (neutral), always be prepared to take a MC for it in the end, as you can never know what will happen afterwards."

And that is the only rule you'll need to know.

This policy allows for freedom, while at the same time protecting neutrals. Neutrals will be able to MC you by suiciding (if you hit them). Then again, you will have way more options to harass the Neutrals than vice-versa. And it means that in MO, you will be able to park your horse on that bridge and kick all passing noobs into the abyss. We won't stop you, but you will get MC's for it.

[Matari]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

The point is there will be more ways to throw people from cliffs as the game progresses. Siege weapons or Area of Effect spells may not be "intended" for that very purpose, of course, but that is not to say they can't or won't be used for it. Horse kicks, trap doors, "mines", forced levitation, the shockwave spell seen in the Alpha teaser etc are just some of the things that springs to mind.

Can I kiss you Mats?

When is my jujutsu kicking horse coming?

Pretty cool stuff planned to make people fly into their deaths

[Nataraya]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

"If you're about to hit someone innocent (neutral), always be prepared to take a MC for it in the end, as you can never know what will happen afterwards."

And that is the only rule you'll need to know.

simple, and clear as water.

[Bevo]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

And it means that in MO, you will be able to park your horse on that bridge and kick all passing noobs into the abyss. We won't stop you, but you will get MC's for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-rl3RPC_Mw

[deathshroud]

Still though mats SV need to come up with a fix for the MC being given by griefers

[Mats Persson]

Originally Posted by deathshroud

Still though mats SV need to come up with a fix for the MC being given by griefers

Please explain, as that can mean a lot of things.

If you mean this specific instance, where you hit someone Neutral, and then that neutral player "grief" you by killing himself by falling damage, I honestly don't know.

That doesn't mean I haven't thought about it. A lot. About the only hypothetical suggestion I have is a timer, which checks the time between when you last received damage and when you died due to fall damage. If that timespan is too big, the assault list will be flushed. The timespan would have to be set fairly big, meaning it wouldn't help in all situations, but it would take care of obvious suicides (you hit someone, who is then running towards a cliff for 10 seconds without receiving damage, then jump off and dies).

Edit: Deleted the server-timer-thingy as I was a bit confused when writing it.

Again, if you mean other instances of griefing-by-giving-MCs (other than bugs), please explain.

[Turkis]

He means people who intentionally jump in front of characters who are fighting animals. They can then go suicide and give out murdercounts to players (particularly new characters) who had no intentions of hitting a neutral character, let alone killing them.

[Nataraya]

I think everyone will learn to watch their surrondings before hitting anything, one way or another; and if you ask me getting grieffed once by these assholes is in worst cases the fastest way to learn that.
but what clealry does not make sense is to put a timmer for every hit on every player to avoid such a silly & odd situation, afterwards same ppl will whine about server stability and so. ,, imo is easier to watch attound.

[Cheith]

Originally Posted by Turkis

He means people who intentionally jump in front of characters who are fighting animals. They can then go suicide and give out murdercounts to players (particularly new characters) who had no intentions of hitting a neutral character, let alone killing them.

But similarly it is a perfectly valid tactic for someone who is destroying your property (ie your horse) to give them a murder count and get them to piss off for a while so they do not go red.
Cheers,
C.

[Lagoon]

Originally Posted by Turkis

He means people who intentionally jump in front of characters who are fighting animals. They can then go suicide and give out murdercounts to players (particularly new characters) who had no intentions of hitting a neutral character, let alone killing them.

I might have a suggestion to solve that issue. The focus should in that case be on not becoming grey if you "accidentally" hit someone jumping in front of you while you attack an animal/monster. It would work much better than trying to avoid the murdercounter with some of the logics suggested above, which are far from fail proof (or too demanding of server resources, as Mats explained).

So, here's my suggestion:

When you target an animal/monster, if you hit a pc and you are blue flagged you deal no damage and you are flagged "risk of grey" and your shield color will reflect this state (but other characters will see you blue flagged). It counts exactly as if you were blue, but if you hit a pc when you are "risk of grey" fagged you are grey flagged and you deal the damage, regardless of what you are targeting. The "risk of grey" flag lasts minutes, say 10 minutes.
This should work will are "direct" attacks, such as melee attacks, arrow, direct spells (be them aimed or targeted), and so on. Are of effect attacks will turn a blue flagged character into a grey one, without the intermediate "risk of grey" state.

The "risk of grey" counter lasts 10 minutes because it shouldn't be possible to exploit it in order to avoid friendly fire while attacking an animal/monster.

[ltankhsd]

I think the system works fine as it is.

[Bevo]

What effect would a timer thing like that have on lag in the larger fights?

[Sorus]

Originally Posted by Mats Persson

Please explain, as that can mean a lot of things.

If you mean this specific instance, where you hit someone Neutral, and then that neutral player "grief" you by killing himself by falling damage, I honestly don't know.

That doesn't mean I haven't thought about it. A lot. About the only hypothetical suggestion I have is a timer, which checks the time between when you last received damage and when you died due to fall damage. If that timespan is too big, the assault list will be flushed. The timespan would have to be set fairly big, meaning it wouldn't help in all situations, but it would take care of obvious suicides (you hit someone, who is then running towards a cliff for 10 seconds without receiving damage, then jump off and dies).

Note however that the above is a hypothetical solution. The design might work logically, but for it to work technically we would probably have to start a timer on the server every time someone ends up on someones assault list (receiving damage). This is because we don't know if the person getting hit is going to kill himself, and we can't ask the server afterwards unless it counts the time. Individual timers like that on the server are generally extremely expensive. And there would be an awful lot of timers, as a lot of people are getting hit in MO

Again, if you mean other instances of griefing-by-giving-MCs (other than bugs), please explain.

It wouldnt have to be a running timer, you could just set a variable to hold the time they were last hit, then check against that time at the point they die . That would be less server intensive than seperate timers running for everyone who was hit.

Another way would be to record the X,Y & Z location of the player for the last time they are hit then check distance travelled before the killing blow. If the distance is greater than N then no counts are given to previous people who have hit the victim.

The other mechanic that UO employed, was that when a players hits healed upto max it cleared the murderer list, this would make more sense if food etc comes in and theres some sort of passive regen of hitpoints.

The only other solution I can think of would be similar to something Darkfall did, their flag system meant that when you 1st hit someone it was a shorter timer till you went back blue, so accidental hits didnt mean you were grey for 2mins.
You could do this change so that you go grey for 30 secs for 1st hit, but make a subsequent hit make you grey for 5mins, then check on the status of those on the kill list when the victim dies and if theyre grey/red a count is given.

Likewise you could employ a %of hitpoints in dmg to give a count out but Imo thats flawed.