Weapons (Materials)

[Zutha]

Hello,

My pals and me generally do a lot of weapon testing and crafting.
We've tested Incisium/Cuprum/Bron and Steel weapons.

Any chance of an explanation in regards to the follow:

Incisium vs Cuprum (using spongewood handle)

2h Great Sword
1. Why does an incisium 2h Great Blade weight 4 times less?
2. Why does an incisium 2h Great Blade have twice the durability?
3. Why does an incisium 2h Great Blade have only 2 less damage?
4. Why does both weapons loss exactly the same amount of durability per hit/perfect block etc....

2h Brier Axe
1. Why does an incisium 2h Brier axe weight 4 times less?
....

Isn't incisium... well.... teeth?

You get the picture Steel is not much better, but is closer. incisium is half weight, roughly same dura, incisium is 6 less dmg. All tests done with max weapon skills and aggressive stance with reciever having max defensive.

On a side note, why does a cuprum weapon do more dmg than a Bron? Being us Cuprum is Copper... and Bron is .. well Bronze.....

If Mats get to read this...

Any chance of a logical explanation

Thanks.

[Livonia]

Incisium needs nerfing. For the stamina use, weight difference and attack speed it does way too much damage compared to the metals.

[Halitha]

I concur Sir.

[Balidore]

Incisium weighs less because it's significantly less dense than steel. As to the other more important questions such as high damage with something so easily attainable and light weight. No idea why they did that.

[kootenay]

Incisium while yes is lighter, and has a bit more durability than cuprum, and almost the same damage. If you compare it to other metals like steel, or tungsteel, or cronite, or oghmium, it performance goes down.

[incorrectlogin]

lol. The devs hate metal. That's why it's practically pointless to use. :P

Same issues when it comes to armor using keeled vs steel. Theres a reason nobody wears steel armor. And then cronite is pretty much impossible to get in large quantities. :P

[Zutha]

Originally Posted by kootenay

Incisium while yes is lighter, and has a bit more durability than cuprum, and almost the same damage. If you compare it to other metals like steel, or tungsteel, or cronite, or oghmium, it performance goes down.

But... it's teeth?

Just want to know the logic behind it.

[iewcce]

It should break in one or 2 hits vs armor or blocked:P

[Zutha]

Aye, should definately break exceedingly quick vs armour. Or have a greater damage reduction than metals in armour.

[Nataraya]

I would espect incisium to make great hilts, and no blades or hilts of spongwood (lighter one). And ofc metal blades

[hobbe55]

pump

[Mats Persson]

Originally Posted by Zutha

Hello,

My pals and me generally do a lot of weapon testing and crafting.
We've tested Incisium/Cuprum/Bron and Steel weapons.

Hi, first of all are you absolutely sure that your skills in Basic Metals and Cuprum Lore are the same as Dental Lore and Incisium Lore? I ask because that will definitely affect all the attributes listed below.

1. Why does an incisium 2h Great Blade weight 4 times less?

It shouldn't. The density of Incisium is 2,47 times less than Cuprum, so either you have different skill values for the materials, or there is a bug.

2. Why does an incisium 2h Great Blade have twice the durability?

Because the hardness of Incisium is greater than Cuprum, which is very important for a weapon, although the general durability of Cuprum is greater than that of Incisium, which can be seen when using it for other purposes. The calculations are not optimal though, please read on.

The materials are not exactly equal to their real-life counterparts. However the real-life equivalent of Emalj would be Enamel. And Incisium is one step better. But anyway, real life Emalj has a Mohs hardness of 5 and real-life Copper has a Mohs hardness of 3. This means that Enamel is roughly 5 times as "hard" as Copper (as the scale is not linear), and that it can actually scratch Copper but not vice versa. (Yes, teeth are hard.) Now, although accurate within itself Mohs hardness is not really used in solid mechanics, but I find it rather amusing to take it into account in some equations in the game since the method of comparing materials by scratching is very old; it both fits the theme of the game, and it makes it more flexible as I want the organic materials to actually be useful.

On the other hand, although Enamel is harder, it is also much less flexible, and therefore more brittle. You can also compare the Young's modulus of Enamel which is ~83 GPa to Copper at ~120 GPa. And this poses a problem.

4. Why does both weapons loss exactly the same amount of durability per hit/perfect block etc....

And here comes the problem. To represent "brittleness" we used a second "durability" value, or ratio. This value basically said how much durability loss would occur if there was a durability loss. A Cuprum blade should gradually loose durability and get worse. An Incisium blade shouldn't loose durability very often, but once it did, it would lose a lot or break immediately.

This second "durability" value unfortunately had to be removed due to cost-issues (calculations as well as parameter storage and traffic), not to mention it also became problematic in the crafting system (the advanced one).

So instead we are now representing this with only one durability value, and it certainly has its weaknesses. It also means that although the attributes of the various materials have been adjusted, they are still off. In the case of Durability for weapons, you could definitely argue that it should depend more on the average durability of the materials and less on their hardness.

I do make adjustments over time, but please remember that this is often something of a catch 22 situation; I could spend time on re-balancing lets say Durability (which also would affect for instance hardness), but doing that when I know the whole Durability system will change within a few updates means it's not always a good choice; re-balancing often causes imbalance in other areas. And as we're working on updating systems or features which will change the overall balance, it's sometimes better to postpone the imbalanced issues that are not critical - otherwise we risk causing even more imbalance, which in turn need to be adjusted, even though the whole thing will be obsolete anyway when the updated system is in place (which in turn needs to be balanced).

Adding to the balance issues (on another level) is the fact that you don't have to process organic materials yet; once you need to put about the same time, skills and effort in processing them as you do with the minerals and metals, things will be a bit different. Not necessarily more "realistic", but a lot more balanced regarding supply/demand/difficulty/cost.

3. Why does an incisium 2h Great Blade have only 2 less damage?

Because it's both harder and sharper then Cuprum, while its weight is less. If you've read the above, this should be balanced out by a different kind of durability, and the need to process the material.

Isn't incisium... well.... teeth?

Yes, it's a kind of tooth material. Very hard. That needs to be properly processed in the near future

On a side note, why does a cuprum weapon do more dmg than a Bron? Being us Cuprum is Copper... and Bron is .. well Bronze.....

Again, the various attributes of the materials are used to decide this. Bron is a tiny bit heavier than Cuprum, much more generally durable, slightly harder, but it's not possible to make it nearly as sharp as Cuprum. A Bron blade should last longer, while a Cuprum blade, although sharp in the beginning, will soon get dull.

Any chance of a logical explanation

Thanks.

I did my best. It's both about changing and updating systems, as well as properties you sometimes don't think about.

[Zutha]

Nah that's a great reply, cheers Yes all lores are maxed. I'll keep playing. Thanks for the clarification on Cuprum and Bron... i didn't really look into the exact materials... i just used good ole history channel where bronze was used for weapons over copper

Only thing i'd like to add/ask is:

It's obvious a lot of thought hass gone into the materials, and thanks for the explanation i found it very interesting. The only thing i'd like to ask is this:

During the process of making say a 2h great sword... how would you reform lots of different bits of teeth into a large blade and still hold the material consistancy?

I can understand the forming of metals into said shapes, but can't really think how you would do it with incisium etc.... can it be melted down and reformed?
Well... unless you pulled a giant tooth out of a 100ft dinasaur and just filed it down ofcourse

So, would it be better to allow such materials to be used in smaller blades... e.g. daggers and spear heads... maybe even 1h swords... but not for 2h's?

btw i love complex crafting systems Looking forward to the next big update in crafting and balancing.

[Airjam_TBV]

Damn fine topic, good questions and answers, I love this dev team!=)


Trev

[Zeeraha]

I tested full skill incisium greatblade against 70 lore skill cuprum greatblade. Incisium made 20 damage on naked, and cuprum did 30 (torso normal charge hit). I would expect for incisium to be quite sharp. On my RL work I deal with copper and it is too soft to make any decent blade.

[TehRalph]

Originally Posted by Zutha

Nah that's a great reply, cheers Yes all lores are maxed. I'll keep playing. Thanks for the clarification on Cuprum and Bron... i didn't really look into the exact materials... i just used good ole history channel where bronze was used for weapons over copper

Only thing i'd like to add/ask is:

It's obvious a lot of thought hass gone into the materials, and thanks for the explanation i found it very interesting. The only thing i'd like to ask is this:

During the process of making say a 2h great sword... how would you reform lots of different bits of teeth into a large blade and still hold the material consistancy?

I can understand the forming of metals into said shapes, but can't really think how you would do it with incisium etc.... can it be melted down and reformed?
Well... unless you pulled a giant tooth out of a 100ft dinasaur and just filed it down ofcourse

So, would it be better to allow such materials to be used in smaller blades... e.g. daggers and spear heads... maybe even 1h swords... but not for 2h's?

btw i love complex crafting systems Looking forward to the next big update in crafting and balancing.

I would assume grinding the teeth to a powder, then mixing the powder with a variable of liquid to form a moldable clay substance, you then form your weapon and heat it up in a kiln. Just my theory.

[Crucial]

Nice topic

[Zutha]

Originally Posted by Jacobi19

I would assume grinding the teeth to a powder, then mixing the powder with a variable of liquid to form a moldable clay substance, you then form your weapon and heat it up in a kiln. Just my theory.

As your grinding down the teeth into a powder, wouldn't that affect it's actual strength when reformed as the bonds in the materials wouldn't be the same?

[Mats Persson]

Originally Posted by Zutha

As your grinding down the teeth into a powder, wouldn't that affect it's actual strength when reformed as the bonds in the materials wouldn't be the same?

Yes, it probably would. But Mortal is not real life. I can imagine crafting with teeth in MO being done in two different ways (three if you count magic):

1. If you kill a creature like the Campodon, the amount of a material you get can be seen as "complete objects" (in this case tusks, similar to ivory) rather than an ambiguous amount. The tusks are then carved to the intended form, where your knowledge about for instance enamel orientation is vital to making a durable item.

2. The dentine is ground to a granular powder. This powder is mixed with a binding substance into a paste, which is then put into a fire-proof mold and casted. Another paste is then made out of dentine powder and certain proteins, and this is "painted" onto the cast while it is still hardening in order to penetrate into the cast and form the right mineral structure. The result is an item with a hard dentine core, and an outer coating with even stronger mineral bindings than the core, more or less similar to the original "teeth". (A bit like Intonaco techniques.)

3. Certain Animism lore allows for growing, transforming and reshaping organic materials. Teeth of a chosen type is inserted into a two folded, rather crude, hollow mold (the bigger the mold the more material is needed), with the enamel side facing the center of the mold. By mentally stimulating the ameloblasts in the teeth into growing a thicker layer of enamel, the mold is slowly filled. Once compact, the mold is removed. Now the outer layer (the cementum and pulp of the original teeth) of the item is removed, and then the item (consisting of solid enamel) is polished into its final shape.

[Zutha]

Cool, thanks for the interesting information

[carp3]

Mats, thank you for the wealth of info you just provided on edged weapons. If you would be so kind as to oblige me, I would like you to elaborate on the durability and damage system for blunt weapons, seeing it as a relatively niche market I have one crafter focused only on blunt weapons, particularly the sledgehammer, and am very curious about its properties. Blunts just don't get as much love from the general population at the moment, but I have a feeling they will in the future... Thanks in advance.

[Slickboo]

Sadly the Sledgehammer isnt a viable option right now D:
I tried tons of them, every single one sucked.
Either they do good damage and are heavy as hell (8kg+), or they are quite light (about 4,5kg) and do even less damage than one of my 2,2 weight flanged maces. I dont see any logic behind this >.>
And even if you craft a 10kg+ Sledgehammer, it still does WAY lower damage than a 6kg Double Great Axe (Armors dont matter, i tested on all types & materials).
And i really tried pretty much all materials ingame, pure blunt weapons just suck and there has to be something wrong with the calculation...
The only "viable" mace (if you can even speak of that) right now is the flanged. Made up one of them with 3.7 weight, ~90 Durability and ~27 torso-dmg on armored targets, pretty easy to make.

So either those get buffed (or a rly good active skill), noone will be using them for long.

[Cheith]

Ok, max lore on everything, swords, handles, materials.
Not max on hitter, but target was naked and just for comparison, Skills locked.

Bone tissue/Bone Tissue handle, 2 handed. Great sword blade.
All hits left limb.

Blade Mat/Weight/Durability/Damage
Bone Tissue 1.51 20.53 4
Horn 1.34 35.95 2
Compact Horn 1.47 43.09 4
Molarium 1.73 58.13 11
Incisium 1.86 63.68 13
Bleck 2.58 51.84 10
Steel 3.22 99.73 23
Cuprum 3.58 59.2 18
Bron 3.68 80.75 15

My observations are that Bron seems totally out of place. If anything it and Cuprum should be swapped. The ancients could NOT make a 2H greatsword out of cuprum. It was too soft, 1 handed weapons only.

Just for fun they are ordered by weight.
Cheers,
C.
PS: Mats, old bean, I don't want to criticize your logic BUT your Bron argument makes no sense if you have steel.
PPS: at some point, once I get it maxed, I will add messing and maybe tungsteel.