should MO change the magic system?

[Scarecrovv]

Originally Posted by blindheavy

Actually two thunderlashes in a battle = 5 seconds. You are assuming that the first one was already pre-cast before the melee and the mage found each other. So mage's dps falls to 10. And the melee could always catch the mage and interrupt his casts. And the line of sight is somewhat bugged so it would take away around 1 second to hit with the spell without running away from the melee. And let's not forget that the mage NEEDs to stand still for 2.5 sec to cast a thunderlash, so it's 2.5 seconds that the melee is running towards the mage and if he is caught, GG spells.

Anyway, the change has been announced. For me, it will be much more easier cause I just have to aim and click and not tab, click and spam the button hoping the line of sight will not bug. I hope this new system have some advantages over archery, otherwise mages are gonna be reduced to healers.

The first part doesn't make any sense to me at all. The DPS of the mage will not fall to 10. As you said two thunderlashes, take 5 seconds.
Two thunderlashes equal 100 dmg, 100/5 = 20. The dps of the mage is 20.

[blindheavy]

_S2_: So melees need to focus only on stats that increase their hp and stamina, use LESS skill points and mages need to focus on stats to increase their hp, stamina AND mana and use MORE skill points and still use stamina do cast magic? LOL.. what fucked up balance is this?

[blindheavy]

@Enigma: You are right. I didn't do the math right lol.

But anyway: A spear user can move much faster and get the mage and hit him fast enough to interrupt his spells OR A sword user can do more than 20 dps with a steel weapon. So I don't see a problem with that.

[_S2_]

There is no fucked up balance. Obviously other things would have to be tweaked/changed. I didn't post up a final draft to be submitted straight to SV headquarters to be implemented tomorrow.

Unfortunately for a better magic system, melee is going to have to be changed right along side of it, they go hand in hand. Sure you can do a quick fix on the current suggested ideas and opinions but they will just be that, quick fixes that don't really change shit.

Besides, why should being a mage be easy? It should be one of the most challenging aspects to the game, yet one of the more powerful roles to take depending on what branch of magic you choose ( in future ).

[Henrik Nystrom]

http://www.mortalonline.com/content/under-development :

- Magic resistance recalculation
- Changed the release of spells to fit our combat system better

So lets see how it feels next week shall we.

[Cheith]

Originally Posted by _S2_

There is no fucked up balance. Obviously other things would have to be tweaked/changed. I didn't post up a final draft to be submitted straight to SV headquarters to be implemented tomorrow.

Unfortunately for a better magic system, melee is going to have to be changed right along side of it, they go hand in hand. Sure you can do a quick fix on the current suggested ideas and opinions but they will just be that, quick fixes that don't really change shit.

Besides, why should being a mage be easy? It should be one of the most challenging aspects to the game, yet one of the more powerful roles to take depending on what branch of magic you choose ( in future ).

Why should being melee be easy either? Poke, poke, poke, dead?
Cheers,
C.

[Cheith]

Originally Posted by Scarecrovv

The first part doesn't make any sense to me at all. The DPS of the mage will not fall to 10. As you said two thunderlashes, take 5 seconds.
Two thunderlashes equal 100 dmg, 100/5 = 20. The dps of the mage is 20.

You are, of course, assuming that all thunderlashes will do 50 damage and that you cannot interrupt the mage who will be standing still. As usual it is another melee strawman presented as facts.
Cheers,
C.

[_S2_]

Because stabbing with a spear uses a few muscles? Magic uses well...magic, and reagents. The magic weaves are made from different elements formed into something that actually does something then is used in a fashion for what it is intended.

Like I said in my second paragraph that I posted, they are hand in hand.

Will do Henrik.

[Afterloss]

Originally Posted by Scarecrovv

The first part doesn't make any sense to me at all. The DPS of the mage will not fall to 10. As you said two thunderlashes, take 5 seconds.
Two thunderlashes equal 100 dmg, 100/5 = 20. The dps of the mage is 20.

Well after playing both types of characters i can say that there are a few variables here missing for this math.

- You can be moving while charging a spear therefore your theoretical dps is accurate.
- A mage cannot move while charging a spell, so assuming everyone in a fight is standing still your theoretical dps for a mage is correct.

However if someone is running away from you while you stop for 2.5 seconds to charge your spell then they are usually a LONG ways away in 2.5 seconds. Unless you're a Veela or they have bad stamina management the fight could be over. Or it will take at least 2-5 seconds to catch up even if you are a veela. Therefore lowering "dps"

Now assuming they aren't running away from you but they are spear spamming you while you try to cast, you will be interrupted (spear charge can't be interrupted unless knockdown). Your 2.5 cast time will either mean 5-10 second cast time or death if you aren't lucky enough to get the cast off before they kill you.

Then you factor into the math the Line of Sight errors and this happens a LOT if you're on any sort of slope or hill and it's still not 20dps even if people stand still.

I think the new magic targeting will make mages require far more skill, however if they haven't fixed line of sight then magic will be useless once again. It may even kill the ability to heal.... and i guarentee you'll hear a lot of this in vent:

"STAND STILL I'M TRYING TO HEAL.. STOP MOVING... GOD GET OFF THE HILL IT KEEPS FIZZLING COME DOWN HERE TO THE PATH.. IT'S LEVEL GROUND HERE.. OK NOW STAND STILL LET ME GET THIS LESSER HEAL OFF".

[Scarecrovv]

Originally Posted by Afterloss

Well after playing both types of characters i can say that there are a few variables here missing for this math.

- You can be moving while charging a spear therefore your theoretical dps is accurate.
- A mage cannot move while charging a spell, so assuming everyone in a fight is standing still your theoretical dps for a mage is correct.

However if someone is running away from you while you stop for 2.5 seconds to charge your spell then they are usually a LONG ways away in 2.5 seconds. Unless you're a Veela or they have bad stamina management the fight could be over. Or it will take at least 2-5 seconds to catch up even if you are a veela. Therefore lowering "dps"

Now assuming they aren't running away from you but they are spear spamming you while you try to cast, you will be interrupted (spear charge can't be interrupted unless knockdown). Your 2.5 cast time will either mean 5-10 second cast time or death if you aren't lucky enough to get the cast off before they kill you.

Then you factor into the math the Line of Sight errors and this happens a LOT if you're on any sort of slope or hill and it's still not 20dps even if people stand still.

I think the new magic targeting will make mages require far more skill, however if they haven't fixed line of sight then magic will be useless once again. It may even kill the ability to heal.... and i guarentee you'll hear a lot of this in vent:

"STAND STILL I'M TRYING TO HEAL.. STOP MOVING... GOD GET OFF THE HILL IT KEEPS FIZZLING COME DOWN HERE TO THE PATH.. IT'S LEVEL GROUND HERE.. OK NOW STAND STILL LET ME GET THIS LESSER HEAL OFF".

I'm definitely a bit biased as a melee, but tbh I've never had any issues with archery.

However, melee also have to get in range, especially with the new MS change, that takes time as well. Mages are ranged which makes it easier for them.

Tbh, in most fights the mages will stay back with cover, most mages will have concentration as well. 40% chance to not get interrupted, and the fact that there is some lag, will give you less time to start whacking at a mage when you see him casting.

Also in group fights there will be several targets, so if one starts running you could always switch focus.

But even so, you get the point right?

[blindheavy]

Henrik, now that magic is aim-based, will the casting time on mounts be reduced to its original cast time on foot? Or will mages get a Mounted Magery skill?

[Afterloss]

Originally Posted by Scarecrovv

I'm a bit biased, I agree.

However, melee also have to get in range, especially with the new MS change, that takes time as well. Mages are ranged which makes it easier for them.

Also in group fights there will be several targets, so if one starts running you could always switch focus.

But even so, you get the point right?

I agree that something needs to change but I don't think it is to make this aim based. The flaw is the spell selection and balance not the aim ability. I mean when does someone cast anything other then thunderlash and heal? it's pointless and a waste of mana... and maybe magic reflect. Maybe there should be less damage for thunderlash and if you want to do 50 dmg you use flame strike which requires close range and 4+ seconds cast time. Maybe thunderlash should be 25 dmg or 35 dmg?

Also whats the point of having all those other spells? maybe we should see some Fulmination / Thunderlash combos where Fulmination hits with its 2 second delay then Thunderlash hits a moment later for a total of 50 dmg between both spells?

Maybe in big fights the melee should down the mages first rather then just picking the target that hits the ground? Hell even in WOW you do that. Of course you lose if you go after all the tanks instead of dropping the mages first.

Right now this can be difficult unless you recognize a name and this is because you can't tell whos who because most of the time Mages wear almost the same gear as fighters.... actually BETTER gear then fighters cuz of the weight bug. Last mage i killed had 8 weight high density gear.

Maybe if you have 35 str you shouldn't be able to have 5 equipment weight... that scale is a mess. 10 str for 4 equipment weight. 10 str i should be stuck in 1 equipment weight cloth armor. When do you see mages wearing gear as good as fighters? we are frail weak bodied people with big spells. If you want a sword you wear 6 weight armor with a 2 weight sword, if i'm a mage i wear 5 weight armor... basically the same gear.

if mages went down faster then their big damage wouldn't be such a problem. Or if they needed to use more defensive spells to keep themselves alive like teleport and it used lots of mana but saved your neck cuz your cloth armor was as good as being naked.

If you're a mage you should be a mage. Big dmg but die fast unless you're real quick on your keyboard and can keep yourself alive through magic... not a full set of cronite platemail.

[_S2_]

My thoughts exactly afterloss. Experienced players should know how to take down a mage by not confronting one directly. Look at the "history" i guess you could call it of the fantasy genre. Arches Kill Mages, Mages Kill Melee, and Melee kill both if they can get close.

Areas like the slums of Tindrem will be somewhat hazardous to mages, melee types can get quite close to a mage, and an archer will have many places to fire an arrow from. Same thing with areas of rough terrain and forest. Now have a melee take on a mage 1 Vs 1 on foot and on an open plain...you might as well just hand over your loot.

[Afterloss]

or as someone else said have different armor resist different spells.... so the mage has to quickly identify what spells work on which target.
I think changing the aim system is a LOT of energy wasted for the coders cuz they will make magery useless and likely put it back later.
Changing up resistances depending on gear and psyche is likely less coding and will be a better long term solution. Aim based magic is just turning thunderlash into a gimped RPG or sniper rifle from unreal... make it aim based but give me a scope and a much larger range so i can hide in the mountains.

Problem isn't aim it's diversity in spells. We use 4 spells only and 1 of them is over powered right now. Why change such a huge component to fix 1 over powered spell? Maybe the same reason they slowed down all of combat and messed up stamina when all they had to do was lower the damage of mercy daggers 2h short spears.

[iZakaroN]

Originally Posted by _S2_

Another idea that is tied with aim based magic. The weave should follow where the mage is pointing at, as he is controlling the weave, and make it a skill, otherwise the projectile will just fly straight from the direction he released his spell from, the higher the skill the higher the agility of the weave is.

I like that idea.

[Chubbyjesus]

Originally Posted by Henrik Nystrom

http://www.mortalonline.com/content/under-development :

- Magic resistance recalculation
- Changed the release of spells to fit our combat system better

So lets see how it feels next week shall we.

Now im impressed, you even kinda troll your own community.

But yah stay focused Henrix, you guys are doing it, slowly but surely. Stick to the formula.

[Cheith]

Originally Posted by Scarecrovv

But even so, you get the point right?

The point, as in all Myrm Mage posts, is .... we don't want to have any INT on our chars as it stops us from min/maxing our melee's as well as we otherwise could.

Oh, wait, the devs said min/maxing would be penalized, oops.
C.

[Scarecrovv]

Originally Posted by Cheith

The point, as in all Myrm Mage posts, is .... we don't want to have any INT on our chars as it stops us from min/maxing our melee's as well as we otherwise could.

Oh, wait, the devs said min/maxing would be penalized, oops.
C.

First of all it's psyche not int, and I've already tested it out, we even have hybrids that have maxed psyche and we've had them asses the usefulness of psyche, it was not very useful.

It seems as if they're re-doing the magic-resistance for a reason. So please, stop talking about game-mechanics you obviously don't know at all.

Week 2: September 8th
· Magic resistance recalculation

[Psykopatah]

I remember the magery in Ultima Online, You could cut the opponent's spell if you cast a spell shorter like magic arrow (spurt on Mortal Online), now the spurt is useless, i think the skill concentration will be good like now for physical attacks, but if other mage cut your spell, you fail the spell.
Poison to cut more spells (fulmination?), paralyze, clumsy for down warriors stats and feeblemind for down int and psy for magues... more attacks for up agility and something, teleport....
These and down the dmg of the spell will be good for do more fun the magery.

the skill concentration will be 40% chance of cast (like now) for physical attack and 20% or something for magic attack.

These will be good for battles between magues, because now its boring,heal heal, thunder thunder heal heal... ...

[ltidiot]

Change magic system to the one in Arx Fatalis, trace runes with the mouse and cast. Really skill based! (Or maybe for a futur magic school)

[Airjam_TBV]

Originally Posted by Scarecrovv

First of all it's psyche not int, and I've already tested it out, we even have hybrids that have maxed psyche and we've had them asses the usefulness of psyche, it was not very useful.

It seems as if they're re-doing the magic-resistance for a reason. So please, stop talking about game-mechanics you obviously don't know at all.

Week 2: September 8th
· Magic resistance recalculation

Psyche isn't that bad, but it needs bumping up a bit more for resistance, but not too much, remember, it HALVES the dmg when it comes into effect, perhaps it should be a blow by blow calculation, for a more overall resistance, rather then a chance of a good resist.

As for the range issue, your having a bubble-bath mate, any melee fighter without 100 in archery, is frankly, an idiot. Archery has minimum of twice the range, unless your bowyer is a prize fool, I think that helps level the playing field somewhat?

And as for loading a spell, it only holds for 15 seconds. by that time, your not likely to catch anyone already legging it away, unless you've gimped your mana for dex, and even then, you might have a lovely los bug.

I've fought Myrm with my Mage, you guys have very little to worry about, you called me as a target and subsequently brought me down quick time. As for that 6 mages thing that pops the target, that doesn't seem all that different from a horde of melee with their bows out to me, which is far more common and easier to perform en-masse.

Still, I'd prefer to actively aim myself, but as long as the magic bolt is big enough if slow, and fast enough if small.

Trev

[Cheith]

Originally Posted by Scarecrovv

First of all it's psyche not int, and I've already tested it out, we even have hybrids that have maxed psyche and we've had them asses the usefulness of psyche, it was not very useful.

Unless of course it is mind blast, but you knew that of course - and I clearly didn't.
C.

[Zealot]

I don't care if magic is aimed or not. however, I do care about magic resists and fizzles. This isn't some 2d sandbox, dicerolls that can determine a fight have no place here. They need to make psyche give a static number of damage it absorbs and remove fizzles completely.

[Scarecrovv]

Originally Posted by Cheith

Unless of course it is mind blast, but you knew that of course - and I clearly didn't.
C.

I don't see why one would use mindblast over thunderlash considering the current state of things. Your argument is still flawed as psyche is the main magic resistance stats. Btw, doesn't high psyche give you a chance to resist mind blast?

Getting int is a specific defense against mindblast, we're talking about a general defense against magic AKA psyche.

[Airfell]

I agree with aim-based magic dependent on the spells logic.

Spurt
Lightingbolt
Fireball
Thunderlash
Fulmination
FlameStrike
MindBlast
should be projectiles, elemental things. Fix- give us more range, reduce casting time slightly to make up the difference for missed shots.

Lesser/Greater Heal
corrupt
purify
earthquake

Target entity- these are more like "enchantment" spells of sorts. Fix- less range.


Other misc fixes-
"Projectile" based magics should be chargeable while moving (at least walking, no sprint)

40% un-interrupted spells should apply whilst on horse and being hit

re-work psy resist to percent chance of resist to current psy out of 120

add resist armor mats

add magic "hit boxes" example: head for mindblast has 100% against psy resist or something (still factoring in armor resists, ProfessorX helmets anyone?)



On a personal side note:

Fighting a mage isn't as difficult as its made out to be.

1. Horseback is currently useless unless your target is on foot, and you have the time to run away, sit still (or don't turn your slowly moving horse), spend 5-10 seconds charging your spell, and then run up and hope to get line of sight before your 15 seconds is up.

2. On foot mage vs. mounted combatant- yes the mage has time to charge and dodge in this situation, but the mounted combatant has the option to disengage whenever they feel necessary.

3. Both on foot- yes, mages have the movement advantage atm, if the melee insists on staying in combat stance. But this is only if the mage wishes to attempt to flee to heal up and return, continue the battle in a kiting fashion, or completely exit the situation.

A maxed melee should be able to continue the chase out of combat stance though, how is entering and exiting combat stance different from charging a spell? If either chooses to damage one another, they must take the time to "prepare" then move.

4. A mage must stop to charge a spell, witch pushing them (assuming they don't have knockback resist) will fizzle their spell 100% of the time. Hitting them will fizzle it 60% of the time.

[Crypton]

Magic system sucks ass.

where are all the other schools ? Are they even freakin developed yet ? or will they be released in a heaping steaming pile of shit like everything else /

This is the worst magic system of any MMO by far .

This is not beta anymore so WTF are all the other schools ?? Is there a reason to keep this shit a secret or are these damn systems not developed yet ?

I cant believe this is the magic system in a game thats taken this long to develop.

What are all the upcoming schools ? What spells are in those schools ? Should be easy enough to answer.

[fisheye]

Aim based casting of course should have to do with aiming - so that whole tab/target thingy is a false wow reminicence...

The casters reticle should focus when its on target and unfocus when its not on target. The more focused thereticle is - the more effect the spell will have. After lets say 3 seconds of not havin a target in aim - the target is lost und casts wont have any effect.

So you gotta stay on target to yield best results - but it doesnt matter if you're loosing focus for a moment or something in between breaks LoS - you simply gotta get it back - or do medium effect to none while loosing focus.

done.

[Lerdoc]

Originally Posted by fisheye

Aim based casting of course should have to do with aiming - so that whole tab/target thingy is a false wow reminicence...

The casters reticle should focus when its on target and unfocus when its not on target. The more focused thereticle is - the more effect the spell will have. After lets say 3 seconds of not havin a target in aim - the target is lost und casts wont have any effect.

So you gotta stay on target to yield best results - but it doesnt matter if you're loosing focus for a moment or something in between breaks LoS - you simply gotta get it back - or do medium effect to none while loosing focus.

done.

You forgot that magic have cast times, now go back to your mounted archer and l2p if you have ANY problems with them at all.

[fisheye]

Casting times dont have anything to do with the method i proposed. Casts will cast - just the focus of the reticle will determine how effective it is. Now go edit your posting. And btw im playing mace.

And - id propose the same for archers - if th ereticle is closed - and you do fast moving while tracing a target allthough reticle has been closed - it should unfocus according to your movement while tracing the target.

[Hodo]

I say leave it alone, cant reballance something thats not complete yet......