Vampires

[Shinzon]

With the same type of play style? You could also have something crazy like an Assasin Vampire?

Though as many said, the buffs on the Vampire shouldn't be overpowering, just a certain edge in increased agility.

[Shaithis]

Originally Posted by Aiten

So basically, you would want a vampire to be the assassin and/or rogue class .... but where does that leave those respective classes?

Well no, a true assassin/rogue is one of the core classes (warrior, wizard, thief, healer), which are typically characterized by having most of their abilities lie in their core area. The vampire would be a hybrid, and his stealth ability would be limited to a great extent - I would propose that it would only work while in shadows or darkness. The rogue class would be able to sneak around much more freely, and perform positional attacks from stealth like backstab etc. The rogue would only need the element of surprise to operate at maximum efficiency, while the vampire could function just as well if he starts a fight out of stealth, but would not reach maximum efficiency until after he strategically chooses and employs his abilities most suited to whatever he's facing.

It stands to reason that, being a hybrid class, vampires would typically be better 1v1 classes than the core group, but at the same time they won't be able to function as well in a group setting as they aren't as specialized to a specific purpose. They should have some kind of beneficial party buff though to tempt the min-maxers into giving up a core class spot for them in a group (however groups will work).

[admiralnlson]

The problem is that Vampires are supposed to be overpowered. If you balance them, then they are not vampires anymore and vampirism turns out to just be a bizarre feature.

You can't throw them in any game, just like that. You have to build the game around them. If the game is anything like the pen&paper RPG, that's what there will be in the upcoming World of Darkness MMO: only player characters with incredible powers (Vampires, (big-time) Werewolves, (big-time) Mages, ...) who will be balanced with each other.


My opinion is that there shouldn't be vampires walking among mere mortals in MO. Because they would be either overpowered, or balanced and ridiculous.

[Aiten]

Originally Posted by admiralnlson

The problem is that Vampires are supposed to be overpowered. If you balance them, then they are not vampires anymore and vampirism turns out to just be a bizarre feature

I'm starting to see it your way. I also want to add, you can't change a vampire. A vampire that goes out in the day (with the exception of Blade), is like a dragon who is a biped, 6ft tall, with fur and a Birmingham accent. Or a dolphin that flies and smokes a cigar. An elf with lizard scales and a forked tongue?

Don't change the lore of myths to suit a game, if we needed to do that, clearly we don't need the original myth and it should be scraped. So, since people have a problem with being over powered, but limit time to use it, that pretty much removes all possibilities of werewolves, vampires, and anything else along those lines.

[Shaithis]

Originally Posted by admiralnlson

The problem is that Vampires are supposed to be overpowered. If you balance them, then they are not vampires anymore and vampirism turns out to just be a bizarre feature.

They would be as overpowered as a hybrid class typically is in a 1v1 situation. In turn, they would not be as potent as a core class in a group setting.

I don't see why it is mandatory to subject MO to the lore archetype of the Anne Rice vampire. I like the idea as presented by myself and others because it would allow for players to modify their class after creating their character instead of choosing a hybrid class with the same functions (for example, "night shade," thief/wizard hybrid with same functions as the vampire minus the blood-sucking bit) and being stuck with it for the rest of the game.

You can't throw them in any game, just like that. You have to build the game around them. If the game is anything like the pen&paper RPG, that's what there will be in the upcoming World of Darkness MMO: only player characters with incredible powers (Vampires, (big-time) Werewolves, (big-time) Mages, ...) who will be balanced with each other.

If you make them one of the intregal character classes, albeit not one that is available on character roll, then you will balance the game around them by balancing them with the other classes in the manner I described above.

All of your concerns can be resolved by the simple logic that, while the vampire class will be potent, there will be a class better than them at every endeavor (melee, stealth, magic, ranged, etc).

[Shaithis]

Originally Posted by Aiten

I'm starting to see it your way. I also want to add, you can't change a vampire. A vampire that goes out in the day (with the exception of Blade), is like a dragon who is a biped, 6ft tall, with fur and a Birmingham accent. Or a dolphin that flies and smokes a cigar. An elf with lizard scales and a forked tongue?

MO's lore is an open book. It makes more sense to say that vampires are hindered by the sun due to the effect of excessive light on their perceptions and their reliance on shadowed areas for employing their skills and taking their victims by surprise than to say that they are inexplicably damaged or even vaporized by sunlight (but not, say, firelight or moonlight).

Don't change the lore of myths to suit a game, if we needed to do that, clearly we don't need the original myth and it should be scraped. So, since people have a problem with being over powered, but limit time to use it, that pretty much removes all possibilities of werewolves, vampires, and anything else along those lines.

I disagree, for the basic reason that myths should not be treated like hard facts. Also, I don't see the wisdom of assuming that MO's lore should mirror the cookie-cutter Old World lore so reused by fantasy storytellers. Even so, there are several notable storytellers that successfully took the risk of redefining vampires (Brian Lumley comes to mind - yes I'm aware that his version still got owned by sunlight but he made it work in his stories).

[yXXe]

Nah, this is more of a "my idea of an mmo.." thread. Being a vampire and all is cool, but after all, this will be a sandbox mmo, restricting players to only be able to play at night, feeding on other players and so forth.. well, those are restrictions I doubt many want to see. Massive debuff? Doesn't sound a lot like a skill-based game to me, then. Neither if I meet a vampire at night, I don't want to die because he's a vampire.

[Shadowdem0n]

I liked the vampire feature in Elder scrolls...I'm not sure about the implementation into an MMO though..

Good thinking!

[hailzoidberg]

It's an interesting idea, liked it in Oblivion. Though it got annoying really fast, having to feed or I slowly burn to death.

I liked the idea in Oblivion though that if you go outside you need to feed. As in there were 3 stages of vampire after feeding.

1st Stage: Hardly indistinguishable from a human, no negs to sunlight.
2nd Stage: (more Buffs) You looks quite a bit more un-human, and sunlight slowly lowers your HP.
3rd Stage: (Most amount of buffs) You look extremely vampire, pale and such. Sunlight kills you in about 5 seconds.

[Shaithis]

Originally Posted by yXXe

Nah, this is more of a "my idea of an mmo.." thread. Being a vampire and all is cool, but after all, this will be a sandbox mmo, restricting players to only be able to play at night, feeding on other players and so forth.. well, those are restrictions I doubt many want to see. Massive debuff? Doesn't sound a lot like a skill-based game to me, then. Neither if I meet a vampire at night, I don't want to die because he's a vampire.

The "massive debuff" could simply be a set of restrictions on their skills. There are some definite ways of implementing it in a stat-free game.

It's an interesting idea, liked it in Oblivion. Though it got annoying really fast, having to feed or I slowly burn to death.

I liked the idea in Oblivion though that if you go outside you need to feed. As in there were 3 stages of vampire after feeding.

1st Stage: Hardly indistinguishable from a human, no negs to sunlight.
2nd Stage: (more Buffs) You looks quite a bit more un-human, and sunlight slowly lowers your HP.
3rd Stage: (Most amount of buffs) You look extremely vampire, pale and such. Sunlight kills you in about 5 seconds.

Please no. This is not Elder Scrolls. The last thing any of you should want for MO is for it to be a foil of any other game.

[Cartheron]

I don't care if they are over-powered as long as they have a suitable negative. Such as permadeath.

[Heliopios]

Originally Posted by Cartheron

I don't care if they are over-powered as long as they have a suitable negative. Such as permadeath.

Permanent death should be in a PvP oriented game from the get-go either way. For everyone.

[Lina]

I say No to vampires. Its not a good thing for an MMorpg. Vampires = unbalanced. And thats the last thing a mmorpg needs. Specialy an pvp one.

[Shaithis]

Originally Posted by Lina

I say No to vampires. Its not a good thing for an MMorpg. Vampires = unbalanced. And thats the last thing a mmorpg needs. Specialy an pvp one.

Thank you for your opinion. Now go read the thread so that you can make an actual contribution to the discussion.

[Shaithis]

Originally Posted by Heliopios

Permanent death should be in a PvP oriented game from the get-go either way. For everyone.

I disagree; there's nothing that states that perma-death is a requirement for a PvP game. It would also create the wrong mentality - people would be afraid to fight and would venture out in big groups only. Wandering around solo exploring should not make you lose your character just because you stumble on one of these groups.

Also there would be so many new rerolls that it would be impossible to keep track of other players, especially someone you want revenge on, etc.

Dying in a free-loot system has the consequence of you losing all your gear, meaning that you need to procure new gear before you return to what you were doing. This would be comparable to DAoC's death system, where dying on the battlefield meant that it would take you 20-30 mins to get back, meaning that the battle you were a part of has long-since been decided (as opposed to lolWoW and the average of 30 seconds it takes to get back in the fray after dying).

But that's another thread.

[Cartheron]

Originally Posted by Heliopios

Permanent death should be in a PvP oriented game from the get-go either way. For everyone.

I was just figuring that when a vampire gets killed it turns to dust, gets burnt to a pile of cinders, etc. No body for it to re-inhabit. It would also be a suitable balancer because not many people would want to be one due to the massive neagtive of starting all over if/when they get killed. Also, it would mean the vampire player would be more cautious and not just run amok being all powerful and slaughtering at will.

[Heliopios]

Originally Posted by Shaithis

I disagree; there's nothing that states that perma-death is a requirement for a PvP game. It would also create the wrong mentality - people would be afraid to fight and would venture out in big groups only. Wandering around solo exploring should not make you lose your character just because you stumble on one of these groups.

That's the point, you're a normal person, not some IVAN-esque to-be superhero who can take the world by him/herself.

[Shinzon]

All classes; no matter what it is (Vampire, mage, warrior) in a PvP game should be balanced equally, so anyone can kill anyone. The only difference between them will be their personal ability, so you will natural get "Overpowered" "Entities" and if they wish to proclaim themselves a vampire, by all means...

[Stompa Mudhole]

Like the idea, But its not practical. If this be the case, You would never have a chance to play your vampire at any seige.

[The Last Spartan]

What about Half Blooded Vampires?

[Vanndal]

Lets see here...

Typical Vampire is suppose to be... immortal to the extent that if take too much hits and they have no blood they turn to dust. Because they are undead... (Bare in mind undead feels no pain, they simply die when their minds are destroyed or can no longer act) they no longer adhere to human limits and can use the maximized strength and agility of a human. The only way vampires can recover health is through drinking blood, which for the longest time was considered the life force of human. (It is... to an extent...) Since they are vampires they no longer regenerate normally.

The whole idea of vampires being afraid of sunlight and burns come from the religious sense that the sun is god's benevolent ray of hope. Since vampires are consorts of the devil and are beings brought back to earth when they aren't suppose to be there (so are all undeads) they can only exist where the sun doesn't touch, because if god sees them *aka sun ray* they will begin to be banished...

Elder vampires are able to channel the life force of those they drain (blood) to the devil to gain additional powers... The devil also wants more followers of the dark and thus vampires are able to convert other humans into blood hungry vampires.

A flowing river or body of water is considered a sending to the nether world and was one of the things vampires couldn't walk over, unless they want part of their powers taken away from them until they gain more by sucking blood.

Also... Water destroys corpses relatively fast in real life, and it probably brought on the superstition that if the dead is placed into water or onto water they would break apart.

Garlic... for some obscene reason it WAS believed that the only thing a vampire couldn't stand was garlic, because it supposedly (or believed to be) something that will force bodily fluids out of your body. A Vampire doesn't have any and only stores blood of those he feed and therefore would cry out blood if they could cry. Resulting in death if they were too close to garlic.

Another reason was that, garlic was suppose (don't ask me how they reasoned this) to stink more then corpses, and the only thing vampires can't stand was garlics because it stunk more then them.

-----

Well... instead of rambling on, on what else the vampire is weak against... lets put it this way.

Vampires are meant to be overpowered when faced against a mortal, unless trained to fight against them, abusing the weaknesses of a vampire. Even then a powerful elder vampire will always force you to fight them in their domain where the likelihood of you having a lot of advantages is little. While forcing their lesser vampires to bring him food.

VAMPIRES DO NOT FOLLOW A HIERARCHY SYSTEM, lesser vampires HAVE TO FOLLOW THE ORDERS OF THEIR SIRE. They don't do so out of honor, they do so because the greater vampire is obviously more powerful and can at anytime control or even force the lesser vampire to lose all his powers because the cursed blood flowing through the lesser vampire is from the greater vampire.

The only way lesser vampires can break free from a greater vampire is when he gains enough power to control the cursed blood on the equal level as the greater vampire. Except since the greater vampire can sense his lesser vampires at almost anytime, they usually don't ever let the lesser vampires become more powerful them him.

These are 2 good enough reason for why vampires should be a monster and not a player choice, for they would not be very balanced.

[Traceur]

vampires as monsters without the possible battle results of players becoming vampires sort of creates vampires which have nothing to do with the vampire myths... and i agree that they make a bad playable option. your not supposed to want to get bitten by a vampire, yet if you have them in then players will want precisely that..

perhaps if you died off a bite your last corpse would become a vampire but not you yourself, so if you'd go back to fight that vampire you might also have to fight a "minion" version of you.

[S i l v e r K n i g h t]

Vampires are creatures of the night, they preffer to be alone or near their own kind if they are in a clan of some sort. To try and balance thing out, it should only be avaliable to experienced, high level players. Perhaps have some spell to resist the night so they can walk about during the day but don't have their unique strengths but still their weakness's.

You could also have Vampire hunters and other types of Anti creature. On thing is for sure, they should have Vampire and werewolf monsters as Npc's ingame.

[1reaver1]

would be nice if being think like a vampire or werewolf were VERY rare possibilities that you could try to accomplish if you really wanted it. It might depend on being in the right place, possibility of being biten in a fight but only when you are very low hitpoint and then you have to have the luck of beating him and surviving the battle.

It would just be nice to make it hard to do, rare to accomplish and so on so there aren't 1000 of them running around. Maybe have a few options as well that you could coose but were aa pain to accomplish as well....like turning yourself into a Lich.

[mccp]

I think that the disadvantage of being flagged hostile to everyone is a big enough disadvantage to offset the advantages alone.

In the old UO days, being a red was also a social curse--you naturally could not go places like cities etc. very often or for very long because people would gank you. you could do it, but you'd have to run in and run out quickly and skillfully.

being unable to go out in the daylight makes for interesting mechanics like being able to play your vamp in dungeons or inside only--making dungeon-crawling interesting and forcing vamps to band together to defend themselves in the dungeons.

I don't see vampires partying up with non-vampires very much. As a red in UO you'd attack friendlies because it wouldn't matter--you were already flagged to everyone so it didn't matter. partying with blues, who care about their murder counts and can't attack willy-nilly is difficult and frustrating.

[IcePillow]

Hmmm... I like it!

[Lexander]

Uhmmm... it's possible to implement these ideas ... but the vampires have to be powerful if not, theyre not vampires ... what to do is make the game more difficult for them, they not suport the light, therefore the vampires always travel at night and in the day they go in darkness ways, as a city sewers ... the light remove them life gradually and them turn more weak , therefore a vampire attacking in the day is a suicide, but his instinct to survive become more stronger in the day.
They're weak to sacred magic and fire (the sacred magic affects his life and the fire affects the resistance and prevents regeneration), but for kill they you must strike them and they are very agile, have great strength, endurance, an innate talent for black magic and they know how to hide.
Now thinking about the consequences in society, every time you kill a vampire character they drop something, like vampire dust, bones, etc, these things are very valuable to manufacture potions, empowering weapons and to learn powerfull spells... this makes people want to hunt vampires.

Implementing players can be vampires it makes people have more things to do in the game , more possibilities to all.