Friendly Fire On and Team Kill?

[Umustbemistaken]

anyone who isn't for FF is automatically the ever so annoying carebear lets just be honest. You can not honestly be a hardcore gamer and be afraid of friendly fire. The two go hand and hand with out saying.

" O but what if I launch an AoE spell and it kills my guildies?!!"

then like i said earlier choose your spells appropriately for the situation this is pure fuckin LOGIC. If you do not think that you have the ability as a player to do that then you need to go back to WoW. This game is skill based there should not be the cancelation of FF because the game favors players actually using their skill. The devs would have no business lowering the level of play for the folks that should've never wondered out of the WoW forums in the first place.

AIM and TIME your spells ftw

[Aireus]

Sure, FF should always be enabled.
Why shouldn't it? The whole issue of AoE is rather small factor. I wouldn't think that you would run around as a caster, being in front or in a large group, if there is realistic physical properties (i.e. bumping into eachother and such). And for the love of a chocolate fish, why would you decide to use an AoE attack at that point?

[SIDENOTE] What types of communication should be in the game? I'm thinking some type of built-in voice software that would allow for grouped members to talk with eachother as long as they are in a close proximity to eachother. This would of course go for enemies being able to hear them as well! [/SIDENOTE]

[Nox Vortem]

Ok, if FF is on and there are gonna be carebears, most likely the dev. will use the following items to prevent the carebears from crying:

- guild tabards with different colors and/ or icons and MAKE SURE YOU WEAR IT
- armbands.
- a large Japanese style flag on your back (I don't know what's the name but if you know Japanese culture, you will know what's I am talking about)
- paint and dye, seriously easy to be able to paint you shield/ dye your clothes -> make guild members look uniform and organized
- AoE indicator for team member

The rest is up to you. And stop crying fail.

[Sarkon]

FF is the thing to do. If your dumb enough to aim an AoE over all your friends that's your problem, or theirs, if they didn't wait for you to cast it.

There's always a strategy where, well, you know, you wait so you don't get owned with your enemies.

FF FTW

[Killermandude]

Friendly fire I'm all fore, it just make sense if you launch a massive fire attack or volley of arrows, not everyone is immune...HOWEVER

The self-injuring AoE still doesn't make sense to me. It'd be completely useless if it not only hurts your friends, but YOU? That might be pushing it, I vote that at lower skilled magic - your AoE hurts you, but at the higher levels - lore wise, you've learned to control them well enough to avoid your self - and maybe even at some point your teammates, but that would be like a "Mastery" perk.

[Stigma]

Full and total friendly-fire enabled PLEASE! Anything else is simply dumbing the game down by removing variables and things you need to take into account.

NOTHING is as stupid as indiscriminate MASS AOE-spamming. By removing friendly fire, you effectively reduce one of the most strategical type of spells you can have into a truly "dumb" spell which requires no more than pressing a button over and over. Can you imagine playing BF2 or Crysis without friendly-fire enabled? Welcome to grenade-spam hell!

To deal with the inevitable accidental FF kills, have a simple forgive system aka BF2. For tohse that aren't familiar with that system, when you die you can decide to forgive the person who killed you and not let the game apply the normal punishment, like a murder count (for example you are pretty sure it was accidental and he is in your guild), or you can let the game apply the normal punishment for the kill. This is by far the most accurate system for deciding what is accidental and what is not - because its the humans involved that get to decide.

Of course you can abuse the system to a very slight degree by choosing to punish your friends for kills that were accidental, but if you keep doing that then they won't stay friend/grouped/guilded wiht you for very long, so that will balance itself out

-Stigma

[Bulveigh]

You can attack/kill everyone in this game. So its impossible to make friendly fire off, without changing the system.

The system cannot know, in what situation you are, so FF must be on. Who says there is no situation where i wanna kill my "friends" ? maybe i wanna fight together with them against a dragon, and at the end of the fight i stop healing and kill both, my "friends" and the dragon.

More loot, and no diskussion about how to share it :P

[Traceur]

your in the middle of a big battle, everyone's running around, you pull out your sword to strike your enemy, and...
there are a dozen players who look almost exactly like one [or two] of your team. there is one of the enemies team who looks like five or six people of your team. all the knights are wearing the exact same best-on-the-line armor, or worst, helmets!

who do you strike?

possibility 1: there are enough customization options for head, body & armor, and this situation never happens in the first place.
possibility 2: you can tag people as friends and switch your "no friendly-fire" switch on.
possibility 3:there are names above people's heads. not only will you have to look above their heads instead of focusing on what everyone is doing in the midst of combat, but stealth-play gets ruined as a result.

option 1 is ideal. but i think we need to be papered to the possibility option 1 isn't going to be case - it isn't in most games. so do we have a friendly fire switch (option 2) or name tags (option 3)? which is the lesser evil?

[Bulveigh]

Enough customization would be cool. In the situation you discribe its really usefull, and it just looks good.

But insert systems, that solve the "lack of playerskill" of some players, i think is the wrong way. They say ATM there is a system that you see player names when you taget them. This shuld be enough.

I like the idea, that a player who cannot seperate Friend of Enemy, starts attacking his friends in stressfull situations. Its a Problem that real warriors had two...

[Traceur]

hmm, here's an option 4:

what if you could tag your team mates and have some persistent visual affect on their bodies only you can see? something subtle but noticeable throughout battle?

this way even if their aren't enough customization options you don't need name tags or friendly-fire switches.

[Bulveigh]

why include effeckts, to help players with bad playerskill to be better? :P

[Traceur]

Originally Posted by Bulveigh

why include effects, to help players with bad player skill to be better? :P

you think not knowing who is who among 2 dozen players who look exactly the same in what will likely be fast paced combat where everyone is constantly changing positions when your in first person view and don't really see the entire battle counts as bad player skill?

what player skill do you have to actually solve that? your telepathically links to the server database?

[Bulveigh]

Dont know your problem.. In neocron all the PvP'ers was able to do exactly that.. much players on on spot where many look the same.

when you have problems to identificate your enemy, use a guild uniform..

[Nox Vortem]

Originally Posted by Traceur

your in the middle of a big battle, everyone's running around, you pull out your sword to strike your enemy, and...
there are a dozen players who look almost exactly like one [or two] of your team. there is one of the enemies team who looks like five or six people of your team. all the knights are wearing the exact same best-on-the-line armor, or worst, helmets!

who do you strike?

Dude, have you play FPS game with FF on? If not, treat yourselves a hardcore match on CoD4 and feel the difference.

Originally Posted by Bulveigh

I like the idea, that a player who cannot seperate Friend of Enemy, starts attacking his friends in stressfull situations. Its a Problem that real warriors had two...

It's not gonna be that hard, buddy, this ain't the real war. I do like the idea but keep in mind, they are developing a game for everyone including those who want games to be easier than real life.

Originally Posted by Bulveigh

You can attack/kill everyone in this game. So its impossible to make friendly fire off, without changing the system.
....
More loot, and no diskussion about how to share it :P

Eh, attack anyone??? Probably yeah but there will be certain indicator to aid visualizing for the player.
More loot w/o questioning??? Oh man, can't way to see your face when a bounty is up.

[Uruz2012]

Having an armor dye system would be the best way. If you choose to not have a unique look then you run the risk of being fried by your mage buddy. End of story.

[Nox Vortem]

Originally Posted by Uruz2012

Having an armor dye system would be the best way. If you choose to not have a unique look then you run the risk of being fried by your mage buddy. End of story.

I already mention this in my OP, I just wanna add that you should be able to paint over your current paintjob w/o have to dip the entire thing in bleach 1st!

[Traceur]

Originally Posted by Uruz2012

Having an armor dye system would be the best way. If you choose to not have a unique look then you run the risk of being fried by your mage buddy. End of story.

that's actually a perfect solution: simple & elegant.

it even encourages social stealth and stealing the enemy's armor and stuff like that...

yep, armor dye - i go with that. maybe even symbols.

[Bulveigh]

Originally Posted by Nox Vortem

More loot w/o questioning??? Oh man, can't way to see your face when a bounty is up.

hehe, and when you dont know my IG name, i help you to hunt the guy where do you think its me, and then i group with him up and share your loot. or maybe i kill him two, when he loots you :P



and little tip:
I sayed this, just cause it shuld be possible. Not cause i wanna do it all the time.. The game isnt out, i didnt deceite which way i go :P
maybe good, maybe evil..



EDIT:
This is a sandbox game. Clothing and freeness in your outfit is verry important.

[Lemons]

Yay for friendly fire. If someone in my group starts acting up, then there's an easy way to kick them out!

But I think that some sort of tagging system would be a good idea... like someone mentioned it should be subtle though. The craziness of the movement in a big fight would make things difficult enough, so i would be for something to make the gameplay more manageable. Though something like this game hasn't really been done before, so a lot of testing would need to be done to find the best way. Here's hoping to the dev's finding it!

[Hampo]

Since the game is going to be in fps. Then yes ff should be on on spells and melee for that matter. This would bring a whole nother level of tactical fighting. E.g in group pvp actually sending different people who have different weapons to different places. E.g send in 4 2h axe users all spaced apart who wont get in each others way as a shock rush. Then charge in with cavalry. However cavalry has the ability to be very tight together without big chance of FF. Catching my drift here.

[Nox Vortem]

Originally Posted by Hampo

E.g send in 4 2h axe users all spaced apart who wont get in each others way as a shock rush. Then charge in with cavalry. However cavalry has the ability to be very tight together without big chance of FF. Catching my drift here.

I got ya, as a veteran from playing all Total Wars titles, I really appreciate tactics and planning. I have seen too many game where archers keep on firring even when their friendly close combat soldiers are engaging the enemy because FF is not a part of the game.
Hell yeah, with FF on, we can even trick the opponents to firring into each other!

[Geo]

Of course we want FF and TK

[Nevvier]

As far as identifying friendlies. I would love to see a system that would let you dye all your armor and put your guild symbol on the chest and on a cape (livery) and no HUD aids at all. There are only so many colors to go around, but adding symbols to the color should help diversify the options.

[Doomtrain]

Originally Posted by Killermandude

Friendly fire I'm all fore, it just make sense if you launch a massive fire attack or volley of arrows, not everyone is immune...HOWEVER

The self-injuring AoE still doesn't make sense to me. It'd be completely useless if it not only hurts your friends, but YOU? That might be pushing it, I vote that at lower skilled magic - your AoE hurts you, but at the higher levels - lore wise, you've learned to control them well enough to avoid your self - and maybe even at some point your teammates, but that would be like a "Mastery" perk.

You control it till you cast if you're to close your toast
Now think, did you ever read in any fantasy book that mage cast aoe at a group where his friend are fighting or a fireball form pointblank range ??
no they always do this in range to not get hit my their own spells .

[Urielx]

Originally Posted by Traceur

your in the middle of a big battle, everyone's running around, you pull out your sword to strike your enemy, and...
there are a dozen players who look almost exactly like one [or two] of your team. there is one of the enemies team who looks like five or six people of your team. all the knights are wearing the exact same best-on-the-line armor, or worst, helmets!

who do you strike?

possibility 1: there are enough customization options for head, body & armor, and this situation never happens in the first place.
possibility 2: you can tag people as friends and switch your "no friendly-fire" switch on.
possibility 3:there are names above people's heads. not only will you have to look above their heads instead of focusing on what everyone is doing in the midst of combat, but stealth-play gets ruined as a result.

option 1 is ideal. but i think we need to be papered to the possibility option 1 isn't going to be case - it isn't in most games. so do we have a friendly fire switch (option 2) or name tags (option 3)? which is the lesser evil?

1. I don't think I'm ever going to remember someone by what their face looks like.
2. Stupid and shouldn't be in the game. The only "tag" people should have is a guild tag.
3. See number 2. And try to remember what your guild name is. Stealthing is hiding, why hide during the fight? Stealth combat is something that the wowtards invented, and doesn't really exist.

Originally Posted by Nevvier

As far as identifying friendlies. I would love to see a system that would let you dye all your armor and put your guild symbol on the chest and on a cape (livery) and no HUD aids at all. There are only so many colors to go around, but adding symbols to the color should help diversify the options.

I'd be happy with aestetic clothing. In UO people had their own looks, some people wore armor when the faught, some only wore a kilt dyed one of their guild's colors. Dyed actual armor is a little meh, I like the armor to be the color of the mats. It's gets to be a little much seeing everyone on the server running around in neon orange armor.


As far as the original topic. There's no friendly fire in MMOGs, there's only fire. If you're dumb enough to use AOE's in the middle of a large fight and your guild loses I guess you need some training. It's called selective guild recruiting, I know alot of the wow people are going to see this as a totally foreign concept, but it works!

[Jangang]

Friendly Fire is essential... Without it is just another blehg of a game...

I'm so sick of seeing fireballs explode over an area and half the people don't even take damage.

If you cast a fireball on an area, everyone in that area should burn, PERIOD! Even the caster... If you fire a bolt off at someone and accidentally hit your healer instead, bummer for you, that fool should drop dead the same as your victim would have...

This carebear crap where people are protected by artificial barriers, be the limits on PVP, or lack of FF, Zones, or Instances is all just that, CRAP!