The definition and perspective of necromancy.

[DoomLegacy]

As we all know magic is part of the game and necromancy is pretty much expected. However I have few different view about it and wondering which one or all of it shout be added into the world of MO.

I hope there are people around to discuss this Definition of Necromancy with me. I know this was slightly mentioned in this thread http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/3...fletching.html
However I was looking for a different input as a fan of necromancy.

I've played NWN1 & 2, and Diablo 2. There seems to be some slight different in the explanation.

In Diablo 2, as we know, Necromancers have 3 skill three,
One focus with Curses, One with Summoning and Animating dead, and Another one is more combat and magic oriented.

In NWN series, Necromancer were associated with corruption magic and summoning undead/ not exactly like warlock which associated with dark magic and summoning Demons or Devils.

The Purpose of necromancer in NWN series was trying to achieve lichhood where they will become undead and live forever, I think like one of the member here called necromantic ~creepy dude btw.

From my perspective, I like necromancy and don't think all necromancers are bad as they are actually crossed and mixed identity. They are scientist who were apposed by the church who deem to be unholy. They do extensive research on what we now called (biochemistry) which evolves around different chemicals concoction, poisons, toxic, and potions alike kinda like alchemist. They also do extensive research on living creature, some crazy one might experiment on the human itself, but ultimately they are the earliest scientist. Because of that the church banned necromancy.

So I was looking for input on which types of necromancer should be implemented on the game?

[GasMaskGuy]

I dunno from my experience with necromancy i think necromancers should be able to spawn undead minions (hopefully not overpowered) and are the ones who can cast curses that can weaken someone and one who uses dark magic. But maybe the role of an apothecary can take care of the experimentation and concoctions

[Tricit]

All we know is that there is magic. We don't know if there is necromancy, healing, elemental nuking, enfeebling, enhancing, or anything else. We just know 'magic' will be there. People revive after death . . . magic! I do hope there will be (and I don't mind waiting for it further down from release) some darker arts of magic that contains what someone might identify as necromantic.

We don't even know if what happened in the video was magic. It could have been a form of alchemy. Creating a puff of knockdown wind doesn't really require magic (nor do many things that magic in our videogames do, but it's still a strong point). I will grant that it is likely to be magic as they are probably not at a technological point where they could do such a thing, but then again, they are on a different planet going down a different line of discoveries.

[DoomLegacy]

Well, I kinda Like the avatar in Diablo 2 were the necromancer uses bone as his armor, I was thinking if there is a spell or skill that can somehow strengthen or add bonuses to the Bone armor would be awesome!

[Tricit]

If you are sentimental about wearing bone armor and using dark arts to raise dead looking creatures and inflict all sorts of debilitating effects upon your targets as you did in another game, then I wish luck to you when we finally see what the full extent of what magic is in Mortal Online.

[Garinold]

Originally Posted by DoomLegacy

As we all know magic is part of the game and necromancy is pretty much expected. However I have few different view about it and wondering which one or all of it shout be added into the world of MO.

I hope there are people around to discuss this Definition of Necromancy with me. I know this was slightly mentioned in this thread http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/3...fletching.html
However I was looking for a different input as a fan of necromancy.

I've played NWN1 & 2, and Diablo 2. There seems to be some slight different in the explanation.

In Diablo 2, as we know, Necromancers have 3 skill three,
One focus with Curses, One with Summoning and Animating dead, and Another one is more combat and magic oriented.

In NWN series, Necromancer were associated with corruption magic and summoning undead/ not exactly like warlock which associated with dark magic and summoning Demons or Devils.

The Purpose of necromancer in NWN series was trying to achieve lichhood where they will become undead and live forever, I think like one of the member here called necromantic ~creepy dude btw.

From my perspective, I like necromancy and don't think all necromancers are bad as they are actually crossed and mixed identity. They are scientist who were apposed by the church who deem to be unholy. They do extensive research on what we now called (biochemistry) which evolves around different chemicals concoction, poisons, toxic, and potions alike kinda like alchemist. They also do extensive research on living creature, some crazy one might experiment on the human itself, but ultimately they are the earliest scientist. Because of that the church banned necromancy.

So I was looking for input on which types of necromancer should be implemented on the game?

Its important to remember that this game is going to be profession/skills based, and not have official classes. That being said what will probably end up happening is that either 1) You can join a mage guild and learn necromancy as a special set of skills/spells and school of thought, or 2) Necromancers will have their own guild(s)

As far as the definition of what constitutes Necromancy, and a Necromancer, there is no question that the school of thought/magic evolves around a study of the connection between spiritual & magic forces, and a material body. That being said I see several different ways a Necromancer would wield magic.

1) The use of magic to reanimate corpses
2) The use of magic to attack the body, with the ultimate goal of bodily failure (aka DOT/Poisons/Disease)
3) The use of magic to manipulate the soul after death
4) The use of magic to attack the soul, with the ultimate goal of detaching the soul from the material body (life-drain)
5) The use of magic to manipulate the soul in a living organism (mind control)
6) The use of magic to manipulate already existing undead creatures, or spiritual apparitions

Another concept that I have thought of is the idea that a necromancer's ultimate weapon would be a plague. The reason for this is multi-fold. Firstly, a plague causes massive death...pretty straight forward. However, a plague is a living organism (a virus), and to a necromancer would have a soul to manipulate. Imagine a conscious virus, that would kill whomever the necromancer deemed, and would adapt/mutate moving from one host to the next and become an almost unstoppable killing machine. It would satisfy a Necromancer's obsession for death, disease, spiritual manipulation, and ultimate power.

Just another crazy concept.

[DoomLegacy]

Thanks for your passionate reply, I do think plague is one of the research they done, the use of virus, bacteria, or even like Resident evil 4 or 5 a parasite agent. I was going for a Assassin crossed Necromancy Person who can use poison and disease a like to maximized the deadliness.

and In the same time, I also view them as bioengineering techniques as well, gather the strong or rare parts from the fallen enemy and try to either implement it into them self or make it into a Frankenstein, or abomination in War3.

[Ceosan]

i remember reading somewhere that you can raise undead horses (from dead horses)


Will you be able to summon mounts?
The mounts won't be "pocketable", i.e. you can't put your mounts in your pocket. You could argue that there are spells/scrolls you can tweak to get a similar effect (i.e. Raise Steed), but for that to work you'll need a dead horse or such. But that's more of a special case.

found here

[Tricit]

It would be nice if we could get a developer source on that.

[Ceosan]

Originally Posted by Tricit

It would be nice if we could get a developer source on that.

um look at above post lol

exact link is here

[Arkenor]

Narrowly, necromancy is magic that deals with death.

Poison, and disease on their own, while often part of necromancer powers in games, are really no more to do with death than fire, or lightning, or a sword through your heart.

So for me, necromancy should concentrate on the control of the dead, and death itself. That might seem limiting, but it is likely that a character would have access to more than one school of magic, so it is quite alright for necromancy itself to be that focused.

Raising the dead as undead servants is an obvious and core part of that. A necromancer usually has a menagerie of different undead creatures available to him.

Imagine if you could raise dead players to serve you also! Obviously they'ed be computer controlled, and the player would respawn as normal. But you would have an undead being with their equipment (until you removed it from them), appearance (apart from the whole not looking very well thing), and perhaps some of their powers. You could also perhaps be able to bring fallen friends back as undead under their own control, if they agreed.

Returning the dead to healthy proper life is also technically necromancy.

Other ways to use the dead might be to be able to cause a corpse to emit a swarm of scarabs, or noxious gases. Perhaps you might have a spell that allowed you to see through the eyes of nearby (or distant) corpses chosen from a list. Or speak through them.

The other side of necromancy is to embrace undeath oneself, granting you a suitable selection of bonuses, weaknesses, and abilities.

Equally, spells that allow you to hasten, delay, or prevent death also falls within necromancy. Ones that perhaps grant you a certain amount of time after hitting 0 hitpoints before you actually fall over. Or cause the falling over threshold to be greater than 0 in an enemy. Maybe one that allows your own corpse to re-animate if left alone for long enough.

Some necromancy I've mentioned is not innately evil. Whether or not raising undead is evil depends mostly upon whether or not the soul of the deceased is involved. If you are just animating a skeleton in a mechanical sense, but the soul is not pulled back, then while it is distasteful and "icky" it's not really doing any great harm in and of itself. If it does involve the soul, then it is evil in the extreme. So that depends on the gameworld lore, and the type of undead involved.

That said, because of how they've been treated in other games, most games will have necromancers being automatically evil, and working with disease. I blame Bertoxxulous.

[Claw]

Necromancers should be able to resurect, to making minions or zombies wharever from the dead people bodys and for sure he should be able to put pestilence,Disease or weakness on oponent.

[Tricit]

Originally Posted by Ceosan

um look at above post lol

exact link is here

Oh, he does suggest raise steed, but it would be a little ridiculous to rise around on the bones or defiled flesh of a horse.

[Volkira]

HISTORY & DEFINITION of word: NECROMANCY.

Well the word Necromancy has it roots from the ancient greek language.

Its simple translation is Dead Divination.

In the age of Antiquity Nercromancy was related to Shaminism.Necromancy was quite popular in Western Antiquity with many accounts of it's usage such as in Books like Homer's 'Odyssey'.

There are also many references to necromancers, called "bone-conjurers", in the Bible. The Book of Deuteronomy (XVIII 9–12) explicitly warns the Israelites against the Canaanite practice of divination from the dead.

Medieval necromancy is believed to be a synthesis of astral magic derived from Arabic influences and exorcism derived from Christian and Jewish teachings. Arabic influences are evident in rituals that involve moon phases, sun placement, day and time. Fumigation and the act of burying images are also found in both astral magic and necromancy. Christian and Jewish influences are found in the symbols and conjuration formulas used in summoning rituals.

Practitioners were often members of the Christian clergy, though some nonclerical practitioners are recorded.

Medieval practitioners believed they could accomplish three things with necromancy: will manipulation, illusions, and knowledge.

Will manipulation affects the mind and will of another person, animal, or spirit.

Demons are summoned to cause various afflictions on others “to drive them mad, to inflame them to love or hatred, to gain their favor, or to constrain them to do or not do some deed.”

Illusions involve reanimation of the dead, food and entertainment, or conjuring a mode of transportation.

Knowledge is discovered through demons. Demons provide information on various things including identifying a criminal, finding items, or revealing future events.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necromancy

[Bardus]

Necromancy, imho, should definitely deal with summons and 'corruption' type spells.

However, I recall the devs saying there will be 20 spells TOPS, so I doubt they can make necromancy very sophisticated.

[NexusCaptain]

So you want a "class" between alchemist and undead summoner ?

[Fortinbras]

Originally Posted by Volkira

HISTORY & DEFINITION of word: NECROMANCY.

Well the word Necromancy has it roots from the ancient greek language.

Its simple translation is Dead Divination...

Good post. That's the sort of thing I think of when asked for a definition of necromancy and I hope the game has room for more traditional forms of necromancy, more divination than re-animation.

Which isn't to say that modern conceptions of the necromancer aren't cool and all, everybody loves shambling zombie hordes, but it would be neat to be able to play a more mystical necromancer as well, all consulting the spirits of the dead for power and guidance.

Originally Posted by Bardus

However, I recall the devs saying there will be 20 spells TOPS, so I doubt they can make necromancy very sophisticated

20 Battle Magic spells. It's likely that Necromancy will be a completely different school with its own set of spells.

[Cleft]

If necromancy is in and it invloves summons i'd prefer a system like the way it wokred in GW. Not exactly the same but if you want to raise a skeleton/zombie there has to be a corpse for you to use to do it.

[DoomLegacy]

Thank For the people who vote this threads as 4 stars appreciate it. I've been to the necromancy link of the Wikipedia. There few thing I would like to pick up

one phrase wrote: Of all human opinions that is to be reputed the most foolish which deals with the belief in Necromancy, the sister of Alchemy, which gives birth to simple and natural things.

So Nexus, Necromancy is indeed part or branch of alchemy! where my perspective of brewing varies potions, poisons, disease was not completely but partly correct.

To summarize the wiki threads, the Greeks said the Necromancy, probably is also part of Seers or Oracles practice where they seek guidance, and protection from the spirits. with roots or Arabic astral magic and christian exorcism.

From Wikipedia
Rituals, such as these, were common practices associated with necromancy, and varied from the mundane to the more grotesque. Rituals in necromancy involved magic circles, wands, talismans, bells, and incantations.[7] Also, the necromancer would surround himself with morbid aspects of death, which often included wearing the deceased's clothing, consumption of unsalted, unleavened black bread and unfermented grape juice, which symbolized decay and lifelessness.[8] Necromancers even went as far as taking part in the mutilation and consumption of corpses

For Christian who opposed necromancy, deemed that necromancy was part of black magic which is more associated with warlock. They also refer necromancer as "bone conjurer", so I assume there is some bone involve in either the the ritual, attire, or skeleton.

As the Wiki also mentioned: The art is of almost universal usage. Considerable difference of opinion exists among modern adepts as to the exact methods to be properly pursued in the necromantic art, and it must be borne in mind the necromancy, which in the Middle Ages was called sorcery, shades into modern spiritualistic practice.

So was there really a fine definition? or it was actually a lapse category?

[Mccordrm]

Check out the Magic section on my site. (Link is in my sig)
I put Necromancy as a very seperate skill set from other forms of magic. People can deal
with summoning a fireball... but you start bringing the dead back to life and they freak
out. Go figure.

[DoomLegacy]

Hmm... Mccordrm, I've been to your site and did some reading, it is not very far from what we're talking. I was asking for a fine definition, or was there one? the lore you've create is not really far from what I've understand, lichhood was part of the necromancy, disease yes, not so much about the drawing life from the surrounding.

The main reason I ask and discuss the definition and perspective in order to chose which "types" of necromancy are going to be implemented, or should be implemented into the game.

[Aenaria]

Im all for summoning the undead minions for necromancy but maybe just 1 or a few? Definitley not being able to summon in mass. And yes dealing with curses is a must in my eyes for it.

[Banok]

lol OP makes me laugh since he seems to be losing touch with reality.

but yeah on topic necromancy is by definition to do with death so raising the dead should be the primary function if such a class is added to MO.

[Mr Winter]

In diablo 2, necromancers basically where seen as scientists. The entire time I played as one, not once did I look at them as being evil.

In MO, I will defeniatly play a necromancer over a mage/healer/conjurer. Though I do hope the have options for some battle magics, like the necromancers in diablo. Bone spear ftw!

[DoomLegacy]

Yeah I like the bone theme in Diablo 2, so I do wish to see a spell tree dedicated to bone, some dedicated to diseases, parasite, or poison, then more dedicated to summoning undead. Imagine Assassin with bone armor kicks ass.

I do have a thought though, say If Necromancer actually able to control and manipulated the bacteria, virus, and parasite. Their use the Bacteria/Virus/Parasite to infest the dead body, therefore creating an undead like creature. With the advancement in the art of manipulating Bacteria/Virus/Parasite, your minions can gain specific strength through the germ specialization.

Not all germ and bacteria are harmful, so with the right bacteria, virus (definitely not parasite) necromancer able to increase his immunity or certain attributes, or even gain new attributes. Like the bone armor I've mentioned.

Diseases are came from bacteria and viruses, with the ability to manipulated those and the knowledge of botanic, you can create diseases, plagues that can use to weaken some countries production. If coupe with the knowledge of zoology, you can create animal specific diseases, and so on.

[Valciar]

I remember a long time ago, I think it was back when I was playing Baldur's Gate (DnD 2.5 I believe), I was reading up on the spell schools and various spells that comprised those schools, and I found something interesting that stuck with me.

Healing spells were categorized as Necromancy spells. I always liked the irony that created. This means those churches that labeled Necromancy "Evil" and an affront to all they stood for, were making profit off of using it to heal the wounded. It reminded me of the Catholic church back in the middle ages when they were selling Indulgences.

So in my mind, Healing and Traditional Necromancy are merely two sides of the same coin (manipulation of Lifeforce Energy), and I'd like to see Necromancy encompass both those realms, as opposed to splitting it into two.

[Belight]

I absolutely hate summons and pets. I want to fight the player not an NPC he creates.

Plus, it leads to many exploits and it's difficult to balance.


The only way I would find this accceptable is if:
1. The summons are very short durrations, so it's more like an attack spell than a summon. (i.e. A ghost appears behind you, hits you in the back a few times (Like a DOT) and then fades away. Or undead hands come from the ground and grab the enemies legs, snaring him.)
2. They are not allowed into towns or around good NPCs. I hate hanging out in town and then having my emmersion shatterd by 5 zombies and a demon running past me, all following some guy.
3. It has a great AI and stays the fuck out of my way. With friendly fire and collision detection... The first time my friend's summon gets in my way or jumps in front of my attacks and maakes me lose a fight, I'm going to go nuts.

[Tikuto]

I like how Necromancy works especially for Undeath and Unlife. I like how it neglects the physics and laws of natural universal continuum; of gravity, time and space, and logic. Reversing, bending and manipulating the laws of the universe by the black magics of the Necromancer.

For Necromancers I would like to not just see the typical undead-summoning, but be able to use it for some sort of endo-humanity. Able to commune with all forms of spirits, warding them (not taming or controlling them), shield the living, feel them (as if seeing them), look through the souls of mortal entities and manipulate them (good and bad magical infusions). Cast a spell and your target is weakened, touch their body and drain their energy (melee combat), channel unnatural energies to sustain life, mutate the living (for good or bad), animate the dead (for good or bad also - LOTR Return of King, anyone?)
Extravagant performances would be group-rituals to create unique form-factors of unlife (vampires) or undeath (skeletal demons, dragons, dybbuk/revenant).


Summary
What I'm expressing is the alignment of Necromancers in Mortal Online and other abilities that do not jsut involve summoning undead. Redefining their exisitence in a world and how mortals can use it for good and for bad like a swordsman/bowman fighting an evil entity or small innocent children.
A more elaborated and versatile yet definivitive version of Necromancy compared to other games and fictions.