Dex/Con/Speed and Build Diversity

Discussion in 'Round Table' started by OccamRazor, Jul 24, 2012.

  1. OccamRazor

    OccamRazor Trial Member

    I do not have a question or suggestion but raise this as a topic for discussion.

    serith78 in the Psyfighter thread brought up something I have been thinking about.
    He wrote
    With regard to statistics in general, there isn't much room to play around with different builds unless movement speed is made dependent on skills instead of dexterity and constitution. Henrik, that's probably a big part of the reason why players haven't been trying much in the way of alternate statistic builds. Right now melee players are largely limited to taking points out of strength and putting them elsewhere, lowering con or dex to a significant degree means slowing down and thus dying.

    Almost all pvp builds use max dex and max con because fights involve so much running and if your total of those 2 stats combined is less than 115-120 you won't be able to keep up.
    The only pvp build I know of that uses lower dex/con is the obese mage, which is rather a niche role.

    There are a few different ways I can think of that this might be changed, but all have drawbacks as well.

    If speed came from skills rather than stats like serith78 suggests there would be little point in dex.

    If you dropped the speed from con and made it a dex-only effect, everyone would reroll veelas.

    One build I don't see used in this game is the 'glass cannon'. No one makes a high int, high psy, high dex mage in part because giving up con means giving up speed as well as health.

    One way to make the 'glass cannon' viable would be to add the same amount of speed to psy as you currently get from dex.
    However since thunderlash and greater heal don't seem to be weakened by low int this would introduce the problem of mages going max dex, max con, max psy, rest in int making them uncatchably fast without any trade-off.

    This 'stat-lock' effects race diversity as well.

    The Kallard race when you first see it seems like it's meant to be a race of melee hulks, high str, high con, low dex tanks. In practice you could use one as a mounted archer but as soon as they get dismounted or the fight moves into hilly terrain they are useless.

    Anyone have any thoughts?
    Any ideas on a way to tweak how speed works that would open more build diversity?
    Or does everyone like it just as it is?
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  2. Mycke

    Mycke Well-Known Member

    Well one solution I see is...

    One of the main probs is the speed that people have in combat mode, its too slow in comparison to non combat speed, thus people can almost always run away.

    The simple solution is to up the in combat speed....

    Another issue is mages are impossible to catch and as such I think forcing them into combat mode to cast would also create further balance. Its just too imbalancing that they get the advanages of no stam to do damage and no speed reduction due to being in combat mode when doing damage.
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  3. iewcce

    iewcce Member

    To make str/con builds a more vialable choise, they could add a great stamina increase for str or con. Or reduce stamina increase on dex(if dex has it im not sure atm). That way they wouldnt be faster, but be able to sprint for alot longer, hell maybe get a stam penalty for dex to mix things up even more.
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  4. Gravvis

    Gravvis Senior Member

    Overall, the str requirement on weapons should be increased. It doesn't make sense that a low str char(61) can effectively wield a sword just like a 100 str char. Perhaps the damage bonus from str should be tripled to compensate because, let's be honest, 10% is nothing...fighters with str should have a benefit and hit much harder han those without str.

    To elaborate: if someone only had 61 dex instead of 100 they would only be 2/3rds as fast (based on dex speed add). Someone with 61 str instead of 100 should only be 2/3rds as effective in hitting with a weapon when compared to someone wih 100 str.
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  5. Irontengu

    Irontengu Senior Member

    the main problem is that historicly armies did NOT run away from each other, that was considered cowardice and cause for your head to be removed from shoulders. MO today is all pointed twords the Gun and run crowd who are solo fighters like they were equipped with GUNS
    formation fighting and the rest of proper meelee fighting is non exsistant because everyone just about in this game PLANS on running away...and the current min-max builds allow this.
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  6. OccamRazor

    OccamRazor Trial Member

    Interesting point, Irontengu.
    There was one game I played (Age of Conan I think) where your runspeed would decrease if you took damage in the back.
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  7. Lugard

    Lugard Junior Member

    I am a little bit biased, I personally play an obese mage, that is what I consider a proper mage.
    Still having only 10 dex and 77 con can be really straining at times because it takes ages to get anywhere and if you encounter someone in pvp you are dead on your own, can't run away, can't chase.

    Even if SV would add ways for a Obese Mage to survive on his/her own then everyone would have a shitfit because Veela mages would get even more overpowered then they currently are. So I am very much for streamlining speed in some form or another, if not only for 'eventual' mage balance.

    Maybe the gap between minimum and maximum speed should be smaller. This would not only solve the 'new players are way too slow' comment but a higher range of melee builds would also be viable because the speed is more comparable.

    I don't know the numbers by hand, but I believe Dex gave 0.66 speed and Con gave 0.33 speed, lets say we would lower that to 0.33 speed for dex and 0.16 for con and up the base speed by 50 or so.

    My obese mage would of course still be the slowest on the battlefield, but maybe I don't have to call it a night if my horse dies.

    Honestly I don't feel we need additional speed skills, Athletics already gives a noticable speed boost in Sprinting, Footspeed and Jumping, I think that would be fair. If we add more skills then you'll end up right where we are right now, with one side being too fast for the other to defeat.
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  8. OccamRazor

    OccamRazor Trial Member

    Reading this I am starting to get an idea...
    I haven't fully thought it thru yet so maybe it will turn out to be unworkable but how about something like this:

    I said above
    One way to make the 'glass cannon' viable would be to add the same amount of speed to psy as you currently get from dex.
    However since thunderlash and greater heal don't seem to be weakened by low int this would introduce the problem of mages going max dex, max con, max psy, rest in int making them uncatchably fast without any trade-off.

    My idea is make dex, con, and psy defense/speed stats and make str and int offensive stats.

    First, make it so dex, con, and psy all give the same amount of speed.
    [Currently a stout 115dex 105con veela's speed is (115 * .333) + (105 * .167) = 55.8​
    A stout ThurKhur 99dex 121con is (99 * .333) + (121 * .167) = 53.2​
    that is, if I understand how speed works correctly]​
    If you average the two speed multipliers (.333 + .167)/2 = .25
    [new calculation for veela (115 * .25) + (105 * .25) = 55​
    for ThurKhur (99 * .25) + (121 * .25) = 55]​
    If someone made a veela that was max dex, max con, and max psy (not sure if there are enough points to max all three but anyway) their speed would be
    (120 + 100 + 102) * .25 = 80.5​

    Also, in the Psyfighter thread Henrik said psy gives a static magic resistance 'based on 100 psy = 30% resistance,' so I suggest making dex do the equivalent for melee/archery damage.
    So a character spec'd max dex, max con, max psy would be uncatachably fast and have decent innate defense.

    To balance that I suggest making the str and int stats straight damage percentage multipliers.
    The way this would work is if you have 10 str you do 10% of the base damage the weapon would do when used by someone with 100 str.
    50 str does 50% of the damage.
    115 str does 115% of the damage.

    Same with int.
    Someone with 10 int does 10% of the damage someone with 100 int would do with Thunderlash.
    Someone with 50 int does 50% of the Greater Heal the someone with 100 int would do.

    So now, if someone made a max dex, max con, max psy character they would be blazingly fast but unable to do any significant damage or healing. It might be good for a harvester character but I think it's unlikely that anyone would find a way to make a pvp build out of it.

    There should however be a variety of viable combinations that could be made on either the magic or the melee side.
    There might be one perfect spec that blows all the others away. I can't think my way thru that far right now. If it's obvious and anyone sees it please point it out.

    make str and int more important for damage and add speed to psy
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  9. Teroh

    Teroh Junior Member

    Make everyone's run speed and combat speed the same as long as all the related skills are 100 IE breathing tech, footspeed etc. Also add reduction to speed based on ones weight. A Fit character should run faster than stout etc.

    Now make certain weapons require high str to use IE axes, maces swords. Require other weapons use high dex to wield IE daggers,spears, bows. Allow dex to give damage bonus to its corresponding weapons and str to the other.
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  10. Bobzer77

    Bobzer77 The Writer

    Adding speed to psy would be a bad mistake, it would just be another attribute people feel they need to waste points in even if they have them in the other two.

    I'd prefer everyone have the same run speed regardless of attributes (but affected by agility skills), dex making you sprint faster and con allowing you to sprint longer.

    Con should take precedent over dex once both of them reach 80, so for every point of con you have over 80 you get one less speed bonus worth of dex to a minimum of what you get at 80 dex.

    This allows you to choose between a low hp class focused on burst speed or a high hp class focused on endurance or a mix of something in between.

    The differences should be significant but balanced, max dex should be able to sprint a lot faster but for a much much shorter amount of time, while high con would sprint slower but for a longer amount of time (ideally it should balance so that the con should catch up with the dex before his stamina runs out if both start sprinting at the same time).

    The important thing is that maxing dex and con would be a waste so we would start to see some build diversity. The other important factor is that it would eliminate the "chase" portion of combat that everyone loathes. You can disengage but you can't really escape as everyone runs at the same speed and sprinting balances out.

    I would elaborate further but it's late and I'm tired.
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  11. Lugard

    Lugard Junior Member

    Overall I generally like the idea, but I am a bit worried that it would be an incentive for more min-max behaviour.
    Why would anyone make a Hybrid if their spells are only half as effective as my Obese 136 intelligence mage and their melee damage is only half of that Thursar/Human?

    The Damage Bonus would have to scale so that moderate intelligence/Strength would still add most (75ish%) of the benefit, otherwise there won't be a point to make hybrids.

    I also think that there is already enough damage reduction for melee and archery in the game so I'm not a big fan of adding more through dexterity.
    I guess Dexterity could lower the chance of getting Critical Hit or Weakspotted and possibly allow you to recover more quickly from Knockdowns and Pushbacks, but passive damage reduction....

    You'd have a lot of disgruntled players though if they have to reroll their characters because their attributes suddenly don't match their desired weapon style.

    I am a bit worried that this would overpower Veela Speed Mages (more then now), opponent gets close, turbo sprint away and cast a spell, stamina back to full and spell fired, turbo sprint again. Sure they'd have to keep running from Veela Speed Melee.....but then we still got veela vs veela. and most other races would be easier to kite because they can never get to the mage before he gets a spell off.
    Meanwhile they'll also have more points to add to Intelligence/Psyche or Strength (Hybrid), because they can't spend it into Constitution.
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  12. Lugard

    Lugard Junior Member

    What if we do something like:

    • Everyone has the same run speed
    • Dexterity:
      • Effects the Stamina Drain for moving and sprinting (+bows)
    • Strength:
      • Effects the Stamina Drain for melee (+bows)
      • Increases Stamina Amount slightly
    • Constitution:
      • Increases the Stamina Amount significantly
      • Effects the Stamina Drain for blocking?
    • Psyche:
      • Effects all Stamina Drain slightly
      • Increases Stamina Amount slightly
    Basically using Dexterity similar to horses, where it doesn't add speed, but rather reduces the Stamina Drain allowing you to run further with the available Stamina.

    Edit: to add an example,
    Let's say that everyone gains 20 Stamina per second, no matter what your build is.

    If you walk you get a -15 Stamina drain penalty
    If you run you get a -30 Stamina drain penalty
    If you sprint you get a -60 Stamina Drain penalty
    If in combat add another -20 Stamina Drain Penalty
    All before Dexterity and skills

    Now a 120 Dex Veela might get a 60% (120/200*100) reduction in Stamina Drain
    So he walks for -6 Stamina (20 - 6 = gains 14 Stamina per second)
    He runs for -12 Stamina (20 - 12 = gains 8 Stamina per second)
    He sprints for -24 Stamina (20 - 24 = losses 4 Stamina per second)
    He sprints in combat for -32 Stamina (20-32 = losses 12 Stamina per second)

    In retrospect a 10 Dex Obese Mage would have 5% (10/200*100) reduction in Stamina Drain
    So he walks for -14.25 Stamina (20-14.25 = gains 5.75 Stamina per second)
    He runs for -28.5 Stamina (20-28.5 = losses 8.5 Stamina per second)
    He sprints for 57 Stamina (20-57 = losses 37 Stamina per second)
    He sprints in combat for 76 Stamina (20-76 = losses 56 Stamina per second)

    Though keep in mind that is also why I suggest that Psyche should add a bit of Stamina Drain reduction and Stamina, because otherwise a fat mage couldn't even run for 10 seconds out of combat before getting winded, which would be slightly too much.
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  13. Traveller_

    Traveller_ Member

    Diminishing returns on stats is the way to go. If you want to specialize go right ahead, but that would always be a niche way to play since you would be sacrificing more than you are gaining. The problem right now is the linear increase of speed with dex/con. If it were a diminishing return law we would have many more builds around.

    Particularly, I would expect many more warriors to sacrifice a bit of dex/con/str to pump up some psy.
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  14. OccamRazor

    OccamRazor Trial Member

    You raise some good points.

    I only suggested adding passive defense to dex as a way of giving it symmetry with psy if we were to give speed to psy. Weakspot resistance is a good idea too, or maybe something else.

    Thinking thru how people would stat is a bit tricky but I have some coffee now so I'll try to run thru some ideas, see if they seem likely.

    Mounted Archers will still want 115str so they can use their bows. They'll still want 121con for health and all their left over points they'll want to use for speed for they'll go into dex (and if short they should have 3 they could put in psy).

    A polesword-using ground fighter...they still want max con for health and max dex for movement. Some will go with 115str for maximum damage but I could also see some dropping 10 or 15 points from str and adding it to psy for the extra runspeed.

    Mages I expect would start with max con, max psy, max int, but like the pole users some might be tempted to drop 10 or 20 points from int for more speed from dex.
    Just getting speed from psy would open up more races, for example a 60 year old Huergar 116int 99psy 107con would be fast enough to actually keep up on the battlefield. He wouldn't be the fastest person out there unless he dropped some points from int and put them into dex, but at 116int he would hit and heal for a lot.
    Also, if mages could actually put points in psy they would get more mana than they currently have. Mana and mana regen might need to be rebalanced a bit or a mage might actually be able to kill someone 1v1.

    Hybrids I have a hard time predicting how they'd perform. A 64str 54int steel sword ThurKhur hybrid would only hit at 64% but he would have heals still. A polesword fighter that went for the extra psy runspeed would be able to catch him. Mages with extra speed would be able to kite.
    So, yeah, I think you are right, Hybrids as we have them now become a lot harder to play. They may retain a role in group fights but would suffer 1v1.

    So maybe damage should drop off on a curve like you said that gives hybrids about 75 or 80% damage and heals but it has to still make max dex max con max psy builds ineffective at fighting and healing.
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  15. Incarnadine

    Incarnadine Honored Member

    Making weapons more stat oriented is definitely a plus in my opinion... Swinging greatblades like their wooden sticks with 70str is just silly. Specially when that 115 str only gets around 4 dmg added from the 70 str. Daggers and spears should have both a str and dex modifier. (Other then weakspot, maybe bump high dex's bump to weakspots a little) while bows should be alot more dex based... While this isn't DIRECTLY focused on the speed changes, I think the effects of it would carry over to people changing builds up a bit.
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  16. serith78

    serith78 Senior Member

    Giving dexterity a stronger relation to archery and possibly a slight adjustment to swing speed is sufficient. Movement speed is really the only "make or break" in the entire stat system, changing to fixed movement speed with skills affecting sprint would allow build freedom and make balancing the entire stat system easier. With movement speed removed as a factor, stats affect stamina, health and mana levels along with a few minor perks such as damage bonuses for strength or magic resistance with psyche.

    Another possibility is the use of stat requisites for specialized skills. Thinking of things like difficult combat moves, and specializations in crafting or magic. For example overhead strike requires 80 strength, or skimming requiring 50 intelligence. Done right, this can be used to encourage build variation and unique characters without one combination of attributes seeming like a "must have" as dex/con for movement speed is now.
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  17. Traveller_

    Traveller_ Member

    I disagree. That would eliminate one degree of customization, although it would enable others. Much better is the idea of having diminishing returns on stats, which still maintain all the customization degrees we have now, but allows for more diversity in builds. Consider, if the speed range that nowadays is between a 115 and 125 dex were to be spread between 80 and 125 dex, would we still have all the trouble we have today with dex and con being compulsory full stats?
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  18. Diphling

    Diphling The Desperado

    Having a singular movement speed would be a bad idea with the current system. Currently, a mage's only defence against anything is movement speed. The trade-off for this is that they are squishy, and IF caught, they are pretty much dead. There are certain loud individuals on the forum who make wild claims that mages are uncatchable, and this is just not the case. A mage isn't faster than a horse, he isn't faster than a pet, he isn't faster than an arrow. Hell, he's not really that much faster than most fighters. You see pvp videos of mages getting chased down by melee all the time.

    Taking away the current mage's only real survival mechanism without a complete system overhaul will be gamebreaking for many players.
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  19. Lugard

    Lugard Junior Member

    I agree, but this should be discussed so it can be considered before the next Magery Update.

    Like I mentioned before in a few other topics, my biggest fear is that the difference between Speed and Psyche/Intelligence mages will not be resolved with the Magery Update.
    Most people that complain about mages do so thinking solely of speed mages, meanwhile Psyche/Intelligence mages can not defend themselves other then taking Unarmed Blocking and hoping a Guild Member comes to their aid, there is litterally nothing else for them.

    You are basically saying that if you want to play a mage it almost HAS to be a speed mage or you'll be ganked left and right on your own (which is true). If that isn't changed in some way or form then then the chance of getting spells and abilities for survival in the new schools are next to none, because it would seriously overpower the Speed Mages. Meanwhile slower mages get shafted.

    If we forget about mages for a moment then the same holds true for Melee characters, everyone tries to get a fast character because that is the only way to succeed in solo PvP and not be victim of your opponents whims.
    It is very realistic, but is it fun?
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  20. Diphling

    Diphling The Desperado

    I am not saying that exactly. It could also be changed so that a mage could go face to face with a fighter. That sounds kind of like a sword fight to me, and kills a play style.

    What it all boils down to, in my eyes, is that melee people are complaining about being strafed. Like in every other logical situation/game/real life, that is generally the problem that melee fighters have versus ranged. If the ranged class either doesn't have enough killing power to stop the melee class before it reaches them, or not enough speed to get away, it dies. The current mechanic, since killing power is not the option, is to run and strafe. If people do not like that the current mechanic is for mages to run and strafe, they need to switch to a playstyle which counters it.
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