I may be off base here... but if you don't like the refining system, don't refine? Someone else will be doing that, kill them and take their things... Or buy their metals and focus on craftin... when there is an economy when resources aren't infinite. It's a pretty cool system based on real life stuff... finding out that calamine is limestone you figure out - "oh - that means I'm going to need pig iron, calamine, and coke in a blast furnace to make steel" - You don't have to mindlessly try different combinations - if you do a little RL research into metallurgy... if the RL system holds true... Would be nice if they posted each in game material and their RL counterparts though - but then some of the fun would be gone. Cuprum is copper if we knew what catalyst tin was we could make bronze...Bron Lets figure it out. Subbura (a sedimentary stone like sandstone) and the way you get tin in RL, [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Cassiterite, comes from sandstone... [/FONT]What do we get from Subbura, calspar... I dunno if that's a catalyst as I have not made my way to meduli to use it... but It's a good guess... so I'm 85% sure that Cuprum+calspar in a furnace with the right skill will give you Bron. This system is at least 300% more fun than any other crafting system I've seen.